The Path To 1559

0:01Istora MandiriHello, and welcome to Ethereum Classic Community Call number 42. Today is the 7th of November, 2025. This week, we're going to be continuing the discussion about ETC implementing a 1559-like Mechanism. And, if you didn't listen to last month's call, we recommend listening to that. With us on the call this week is Cody Burns, Phil, and Stacey. If any of you would like to introduce yourselves, please go ahead. 0:36PhilYeah, let me introduce myself first. So, I'm Phil, I'm from Bitman, and I'm also the, In charge of the, ETC ecosystem of the Bitman, and also, an embedded software developer in the software, at, BitMen. And, today I'm going to, join this meeting to, take a participant of the, let's say, EIP1559 discussion, and it's my honor to be here. Thank you. 1:08Istora MandiriThank you, Phil. 1:13Cody BurnsAnd I'll go next. I'm Cody Burns. I'm a board member on the Ethereum Classic Cooperative. And, help with just general community development and ecosystem things. Happy to be here. Thanks. 1:34Istora MandiriThank you, Cody. 1:36Stacy WangHi, I'm Stacy, I'm also from Bigman, and I'm working with Phil together. So, basically, I'm just… I will just, like, listen to your discussion today, and we will see what we can do next to make EDC better. Thank you. 1:58Istora MandiriThank you, Stacy. And, I'm Astoria, long-time contributor to ETC, and… Currently trying to, shape discussion for the next step for ETC, and we're now focusing on this 1559 question. Of which there are a number of different options that we will be exploring in this call. So… I guess just as a recap, in the last call, if I remember correctly, we basically got to the conclusion that we probably want something like 1559 for compatibility. And, interoperability with upstream Ethereum, in terms of op calls and wallets and integrations and that kind of thing. So, the next question is. exactly what kind of mechanism we implement, because we can't copy exactly Ethereum, in that they're burning the transaction fees, and that would mess with the Ethereum Classic Emission schedule. And, because we have a… the… Ecip1017. Which, implements an emission curve. We kind of rely on transaction fees in the future to incentivize mining. So… We need to figure out a way of how to, integrate transaction fees. without fully burning them in the future. That's my position, at least. As far as I understand, we have 4 options on the table at the moment. One is, smoothing over a period of blocks. Which was discussed in one of the papers. Again, you can reference the notes for last week. Another is Olympia, which is a treasury system. Another is an idea I came up with Since the last call, which is a kind of reservoir system. And another that Corey talked about, potentially, is a hybrid approach, combining the different mechanisms together. So that might include Olympia plus smoothing end blocks, or, Yeah, just a combination of the above. So, were there any other options on the table before I… continue the discussion and talk about Olympia. Or are there any other comments before we move ahead? 4:36Cody Burnsno other options I can… I'm aware of. 4:41Istora MandiriWell, I guess the other option is do nothing, but that would definitely prevent us from, the advantages of being interoperable with Ethereum, and I think we kind of decided that wasn't a good option. So… We didn't get much chance to talk about Olympia last week… last, sorry, last month. So… I thought it might be a good time to, like, Open up discussion about that. 5:20Cody Burnsbrewer. 5:23Istora MandiriYeah, so… 5:24Cody Burnsdope. 5:25Istora MandiriI guess the main thing that I already alluded to was the, Transaction fees, and relying on those in the future, and… I pasted a link into the chat about visualizing future rewards. Both the block subsidy and the… The total block reward, which is the subsidy plus the transaction fees. And if we assume there's no transaction fees. At a fixed price of 20 US dollars. per ETC. We see that the… The block… the total block rewards? Going down considerably in the next few years. 6:13Cody BurnsIf we only… if we only rely on. 6:18Istora MandiriThe… the emission curve. So either the price has to go up a lot. In which case, the problem is shifted. Further into the future. Or… we need to utilize the transaction fees in some way. As a more sustainable incentive for miners to mine further down the line in the future. So I was wondering if, you had any thoughts on how… Olympia would be able to be… Integrating some kind of long-term incentivization mechanism. 6:57Cody BurnsYeah, it's… it's a problem, I guess, for all blockchains. It's not as much of a problem for Bitcoin, because it's super… It has a good price right now, but if the block reward goes down, then that's what miners are… at some point, there has to be a point of crossover where the transaction fees are making more than the block rewards are. I don't think we're on a path to see that. With our current volume of transactions and all of these things. The way to get more transactions is to have more things going on and more development, and that's kind of the… impetus behind Olympia is creating a community DAO where people can make proposals and get funding and go do things like write blog articles or keep the software up-to-date and things like that. So… The things that, are the non-glamorous parts of blockchain and open source projects, trying to fund that? And doing it off of the transaction reward, is the Olympia twist on it, so there… 1098, I think, was the Treasury proposed by IOHK a few years ago, and that was taking from the block reward. And it runs into the same problem that you would have if you were… that the miners will run into eventually, of the block rewards go away, and if there's not transactions, then… There's no incentive to continue development. Using the smoothing is a… A good way of keeping the, A persistent, or a constant? stream of miners mining. If you know that someone's made a large investment in infrastructure, they're gonna keep mining. something, and so having the smoothing reward, is kind of a bonus for continuing to mine ETC for the transactions, because you get a continued reward for however many, blocks after the reward you… or the block you just mined. So it's kind of a smoothing of that, Income? and so I… the way that, I guess, that they would be combined Olympia and the smoothing would be that for the base fee, some portion of that would go towards the Olympia Dow Treasury contract, and then the remainder would go towards the miners, and then some portion would go towards the smoothing paid out over however many blocks. And I guess the idea behind it is that the security is important. Right now, the block rewards paying for the security, and through the efforts of The mining pools. And the development was taken care of by the, people who were here early in forked Code, or… Just different people in the ecosystem that, As we've seen, it's not a sustainable model long-term, to hope for donations and things like that, so… Being able to position the ecosystem to support itself is… Long-term is, I think, the… 10:19Istora MandiriMy big goal, the whole thing. I see. So the… I guess, like, a starting point would be a 50-50 split. I'm not… I'm just pulling numbers out of the air at this point, but… would… would the… would there be, like, a… a USD-based target to fill up Olympia? Or would that just be a fixed 50%? and also… the… The actual transaction fees. at this point, are quite low. Like, we're talking… a yearly budget. of, like, let's see… I think it's about $1,000 a week. Is the… Is the average. 11:15Cody BurnsTransaction fees. 11:16Istora MandiriSo, on a yearly basis, that would be 50K, and then if it was half of that, 25K. So, I'm not sure… 11:26Cody BurnsPretty paltry compared to block rewards right now. 11:30Istora MandiriYeah, yeah. The transaction fees, basically, would… I don't know if it'd pay for a single person's salary. 11:37Cody BurnsYup. Which is a problem? No doubt. It would definitely not pay for even a single block to get mined, either, right now. So it's… it's a crisis of… it's like a security problem that we're gonna run into at some point that we can see now coming. So maybe that's a way to think about it, is we know that at some point there's going to be a crossover of the block reward is less than the transactions. We want to be able to hopefully say that the transactions are going up, and that's why it happened, not because we have no transactions and the block reward went away. 12:11Istora MandiriYep. I agree, and I do… I'm aligned with the goal of increasing… I mean, essentially, it's the price of ETC that's going to dictate a lot of things, and also demand for the chain. And those two variables, can they be… shifted by the creation of a DAO, is the question, that's funded by 50K USD a year. Or was… does there need to be some other mechanism? And are we potentially introducing additional complexity and focusing time on something that May or may not work compared to, like, a more simple thing that provides additional assurance, and is less, I don't know, complex. 13:03Cody BurnsYeah, I'm… It's a bootstrapping problem, I think, of when… when do we need the money, or how can we do this? Right now, it is… chump change, more or less, what we would get on the transaction fees. But also, right now, the co-op still has funding, and the ETC DAO also still has funding that is able to support Until there are transactions. But that's… That's the really hard part that we have to tackle next, of if we do get this set up, and we know that we'll have funding eventually. Someone actually has to start putting in work on this project and make this a real. 13:39Istora MandiriYeah. 13:40Cody Burnsa real chain. I mean, we have a good narrative, it's… we are the security chain, we've got good principles, it's… everything is there and in place and working and running. It's… no one's ever put forth that effort to make ETC the… A viable alternative to people of, whenever they're doing these pitches. like, there's no reason Solana should be a number 3 coin that gets added to… banks and things like that, and ETC shouldn't be in the mix, too. We just haven't had the… I don't know, presents or something, or… there's… we've… The effort hasn't been there to… Move in, and frustrates me, still. But it's also partly my fault. I guess I can take blame for that, too. I've never… Fully committed and leaned in. 14:32Istora MandiriI don't think it's a… it's not something that any… anyone's really to blame for. It's… it's macro market realities in terms of, this… this new and… emerging space, so I don't think anyone's to blame. I do not think we're in that bad a place, actually. Because the fundamentals are way more important. Market cap is something that can be quite easily manipulated, and is not a really good reflection of like, how… Liquid a market is, and how things are distributed. Fairly, in terms of the number of holders, and… If there's one guy with half the market cap of a coin, then they can easily… Make it whatever price they want to, based on the last trade, so… I actually think that ETC is probably, more valuable, fundamentally, than a lot of the coins with a higher market cap, because of that. Because it's been around for so long, and because it's, Probably one of the fairest distributed chains out there. So… I think looking into market cap can maybe, like, Seemed depressing, but… Is not actually that useful of a metric in terms of long-term success. 15:49Cody BurnsYeah, blame might have been the wrong word. I guess whenever… for my day job, currently I'm consulting with a bunch of, capital markets Institutions who are looking to bring, crypto to the American financial markets. I think that's the most neutral way to explain it. And at some point, there's going to be a ratings agency that starts evaluating coins, and Ethereum Classic is, hands down, amazing, on paper. It's been around the longest. It resisted change whenever there was the Dow. It, development equivalent to Ethereum. It has proof of work, highly secure. Everything about it is amazing. But it hasn't had… The personalities, I guess, to… get it taken seriously. I guess. I don't have a better way of saying it. It's not one of those… 16:50Istora MandiriYeah. 16:51Cody Burnsthere are… coins that… or groups, I don't even know if I'd call them coins or projects, it's communities that early on did the ICOs. They had… they have a huge war chest now, hundreds of millions of dollars, and the ones that haven't already rug-pulled and ended up on a beach in Bali doing development for their blockchain are making the rounds right now, talking it. the World Bank, Chainlink's doing things with SWIFT. The DTCC, like. now is the time that everyone's been waiting for, for all the blockchain and finance stuff. ETC's… Positioned brilliantly for it, but we're at a problem of… All the money was blown on seemingly silly stuff that never mattered, and the people that are left are the ones that were volunteers who were just here for the passion of it, and now we're trying to figure out how to Convince ourselves that we should set up funding. 17:50Istora MandiriYep, pretty much. To bring it back to, Olympia on that topic. Is there not a risk of… changing the… the game slightly with regards to how… like… because ETC is a purely… it's, like, one of the most decentralized coins. It's the most commodity, if you're looking at security commodity spectrum. 18:13Cody BurnsAnd… 18:14Istora MandiriBecause there's no centralization. Then, it's, like, really difficult to claim that this is, like, anything other than a commodity. And, like, looking at the Olympia proposal, I'm seeing, like, we're gonna put, like, a… an LLC, and a… some kind of company that's receiving and managing the funds, and I'm like, is that… is that potentially gonna open up? the whole protocol to additional legal risk, and kind of inheriting the properties of whoever's managing that LLC. 18:48Cody BurnsYeah, and… That's… I have no idea, I'm not a lawyer, so that's definitely a lawyer question. I don't know. At some point, the… wherever this money comes from, or goes to, needs to find a way of, funding these things. Right now, the co-op does a lot of it. 19:09Istora MandiriNo. 19:10Cody BurnsRight, $40,000 a month to keep all the services online for… as far as block explorers, RPC endpoints. websites, other things, personnel? so that's… it has runway, I mean, it's… the co-op's there, it can keep the services going for now until something else gets established, but at some point, that money runs out because it's a not-for-profit. there's… they can't do anything to raise money other than ask people, and it doesn't have somebody out there asking people. So the other way to do it would be to have the Zcash model of the blockchain Is able to contribute to… A real person who can do this on their behalf. Whatever mechanics it is that gets it in place. But… it… the Zcash is a non-profit or a not-for-profit foundation also, but they're… they have millions of anonymous donors, because every block counts as a donor. And so that's, I think, I guess, my… thinking behind the Olympia needs a… some kind of legal entity. The Dow's in, the LLC DAOs are the closest thing from a, Legal entity right now that matches what would be on-chain, but… I think it's open to… really anything, because Olympia should be a system where coins go into a… Pre-funded account. And then… people can submit… anyone can submit proposals, and there's a voting process, and then anyone should be able to get funds out of it. The LLC would be there for the… establishing, like, a longer-term service contract, but it would also have to go through the same process of submitting a proposal, getting public scrutiny, and having to get approved by the, members of the DAO. So I wouldn't say the LLC would be special in that regard. It's not like it just gets access to funding. 21:12Istora MandiriI see. And with regards to the, the distribution of voting tokens in the Dow. Has that been… How would that initially be kicked off? 21:29Cody BurnsIt's a good question, because… I don't know, that's another bootstrapping problem, I guess. We could give it to all the coin holders, but… There's no guarantee that all the coin holders Exist, or want to participate, or… Are intelligent enough to make calls on technical decisions. So… I'm not sure, I mean, this would have to be… Definitely discussed of, one way to do it would be coin voting. Everyone who has a coin does it. Another way would be to create a… some kind of, NFT or voting token, and distribute those in a fair way. But I'm not sure of a way to… Do it fairly and get consensus. 22:23Istora MandiriYeah. I think it's one of the big problems. with… Because, yeah, if it's just a coin vote, then obviously, like… like, Wales would be able to manipulate voting. And it's not… it's not… it's not necessarily, like, a fair way. But it's the only… Unbiased way, that doesn't require, like. some other admin system to figure out who to distribute them to. Like, coin votes is the only metric, as far as I know, that is completely, like, objective within a contract system to kick things off. I guess you could have additionally, like, A registration window where people can… use their coins to stake in order to get a token. Then you're also, like, leaving out the people that have their coins in cold storage, and the people that, like, are not sure whether to use the protocol, and then they're being required to do additional steps that may or may not You know, work out. So, I do think that a lot of the… the mechanisms of Olympia need to be extremely, like, well thought out, and made explicit, and… It seems like a lot of them are not fully formed at this stage. 23:49Cody BurnsYeah. That's fair, but… I mean, also, this is… this is the group to solve that. The people… the people… I mean, another thing, that I've seen recently, I was listening to on a podcast, is Fucharkey, where it's… basically a prediction market where you would lock up your coins, for the decision. So if there was a, for instance. If we knew that something had to get implemented to, say. make $15.59 on the Ethereum Classic Blockchain, it could go to a vote, and then… the people voting for it would lock up their coins, because they think the price of ETC is going to go from $14 to $20. So they could essentially do a short, and… Somebody else would take the opposite of action, because they don't think it'll work out. And so then the prediction market is the voting mechanism of if enough people have locked up their coins and are in this boat with you, then the… then it passes, and you can go. And if it doesn't, then the change never gets implemented. So that would be an interesting way to do it, but… I don't know, it's some… how do… How do we figure out what the best way is to do this? as a group. 25:12Istora MandiriWell, I… I reckon my suggestion would be to, like. Do an implementation first, and see if there's something that might work. And do that on, like, a testnet, or even mainnet, just with… small amounts. But until there is a viable DAO setup. It seems like it's kind of getting ahead of ourselves to say, like. Like, this major update is planned for 2026. 25:43Cody BurnsWell, I think it was… 25:44C. MercerI'll. 25:45Cody BurnsGood. 25:45C. MercerI can chime in. I just joined the call. How's it going, guys? 25:50Istora MandiriHi, Chris, good, thank you. 25:52C. MercerSo, it sounds like you're talking about, ECIP 1113. And I think that, I notice a lot of, kind of, how you've been framing things is that everything's set in stone and very… detailed, the thing about, 1113 is that it's more of a framework. So if you read the proposal, it's, it's… It's not set in stone and extremely detailed, because there's many options for many, applications of… this type of treasury. For instance, it includes the option for child DAOs, where I think one of the concerns that was brought up was, you know, what about, you know, the client maintenance, right? Typically client maintenance isn't very controversial, do you need a robust… token-weighted coin voting system, just to have transparent proposals saying, hey, we'd like to keep EVM compatibility. I don't really think that you need that, and there's an option, you know, to build a child DAO system… that… Allows transparent proposals, allows transparent funding, requests for that. I think that these are things that we don't have in client maintenance right now. And then, and then you can buy a system, or you can build a system that's, very streamlined to that. One that doesn't require… massive, you know, community consensus around everything, because we generally operate under the framework that Ethereum Classic is going to maintain EVM compatibility. So, I'm just trying to highlight that Olympia, as I think Cody has mentioned numerous times, in writing and on the previous call, is that Olympia is more of a framework to get the changes that are generally required to maintain EVM compatibility, as an example, Type 2 transactions, are becoming required in wallet systems, which… wallet systems to, to someone that is maybe an end user, they just think, oh, MetaMask, right? No, wallet systems are like fire blocks and, exchange ecosystems, so to make sure that ETC maintains support, you know, and availability to the global world. You need to make sure that these type of transactions are supported. So, I'm just trying to highlight that. 28:57Istora MandiriWe covered the 1559 stuff at the start. 29:01C. MercerGotcha, gotcha. 29:02Istora MandiriWe basically agreed that we do need to do this, a 1559-style thing, and we're now discussing, like, the four options. So we have Olympia, smoothing over blocks, a reservoir system, or a hybrid approach. And we're getting into the Olympia part because it's one of many different options. And the… we… we just, like, kind of need to get into the details of how it's actually implemented, because if it's possible, then we can do it. But if it's… if it's, like, impossible to do it in a fair way, if there's not one, like. reasonable approach, then… It can't really be one of the options, so… Is… is there, like, one… One way of doing the fare distribution. 29:51C. MercerAre you saying for a DAO system? I think, I think it's written right now, it's written as a one address, one vote, and then, it mentions that there are many options, That provides civil resistance and things like that, but, you know, it's written in a way where you… Can set this up, and then you can start adding proposals to modify for whatever use case you need, right, for the Treasury. And, and that's how it's written right now, because there are many, many treasury systems that exist right now, and as Cody was just highlighting of. We have to decide How we want those funds to be allocated and sliced up. And the voting systems that we want around the different use cases for those funds. Additionally, as I think you have highlighted, is, you know, the Type 2 transaction fee market starts at $0, so it's not, something that needs to be resolved tomo… you know, tomorrow, right? This is not… this is not something that needs to be rushed. Olympia is designed in a way That is modular. and you effectively can do ECIP 11111, which is the feed redirect, which is what you are talking about. Right? You are talking about the Olympia framework and implementing it. You're saying that it's different with an L-curve or something like that, but those are just very minor knobs that we get to tweak and adjust In this framework, so… We can do… 11-11 very easily, and then… 31:49Istora MandiriOlympia? Is Olympia a Treasury proposal, or is it something else? Because to… in all the marketing and the announcements, it… like, Olympia equals a Treasury. 32:02C. MercerOlympia… Olympia has an element in there, which is 1113, which is what do you do with the base fees, which the base fees are not… like, claimed by the miners, which is what some people have tried to claim, is that the miners have the rights to that. They do not. And it's when these fee… what happens with these fees? I believe you were proposing to burn them, and then I. 32:32Istora MandiriNo. 32:32C. Mercerchanged… you've changed your position on that. And so, it's what do you do with these fees that adds values? And at the time, you've been absent for about a year, but at the time. you know, ETC Co-op was signaling that they were going to be… Reducing their core team, and they were running out of runway. And… what happened was, in… it might have been October. and then it executed in December of 2024. Bob Sommerwell laid off two, you know, reduced his staff, after a heavy, a heavy payroll burn. And then the documents came out that kind of showed where all of those funds were going, and the Treasury idea came out of, okay, so we've been talking about this since the last time that Bob Summerwell said that they were gonna go under which was me and you on calls in 2021 or 2022, talking about setting up some long-term Treasury proposal, right? And so… so this… this is not an idea that… came out of nowhere. This is, like, 10 years of conversation that has resulted in this. Cody in 2021 was suggesting, hey, maybe we should use this base fee, towards a treasury, and I think at the time, in 2021, the idea was, okay, well, let's observe that. and see what happens, and we've seen that happen all over the EVM space. People all over the EVM space are using contracts that are doing this, and solving these. 34:19Istora MandiriOkay, good. 34:19C. Mercerissues, which are called public good issues, right? So it's been something… These are the projects that… 34:25Istora MandiriThey're not comparable, because the other projects, they don't have the same requirements in terms of neutrality and equal footing of the protocol. And unless there's a way to actually implement this. 34:37C. MercerThey certainly do. They certainly… many do, and how can you say that over all of the EVM? You could say some EVMs are… have a centralized team and things like that. 34:46Istora MandiriCan you give me an example. 34:49C. MercerYeah, they're built into the ECIP. There's plenty of examples in there. 34:56Istora MandiriWhat's an example of a… A treasury system that has equally… equal neutrality and equal footing requirements that ETC has. 35:08C. MercerWell, for one, I think you need to frame it as, right now, are we operating under a decentralized model in our core Geth Or in our, in our client maintenance at all. Histora, like… 35:23Istora MandiriIt's, it's. 35:24C. MercerIs it not entirely centralized right now? It's 100% centralized. 35:30Istora MandiriIs the protocol centralized? 35:32C. MercerIs… is the work that, decides what the protocol is? Is that central? Yes. 35:38Cody BurnsThat's working on getting more decentralized. Bitmain will be bringing on developers as well, so the development work is getting spread out some. 35:48Istora MandiriThe question is, can you implement this? Can you change the protocol in a way that implements this Treasury whilst maintaining neutrality and equal footing? And I don't think it's possible. Like, so far, the only thing that's been actually proposed is a coin vote. 36:17C. MercerIt's at… that's actually not true at all. And that's what I'm saying, where I don't believe that you're given a fair… a fair assessment of the ECIPs, the coin… 36:27Istora MandiriYou just said in this conversation that, to begin with, we just have a coin vote. 36:31C. MercerNo, I… 36:32Istora MandiriThen we… then we import… 36:33C. MercerIt has a… it explicitly does not do a coin vote, because we know, that was the IOHK model that that required coins and staking, if you remember all of that. It does not do that. It's a one address, one vote, and then you have Sybil-resistant systems that you can implement with that, because obviously it would be very easy to, fire up a ton of, you know, single addresses and vote in however you wanted. So, So it's not, it's not a coin vote, which is what you keep framing it as. 37:08Istora Mandirihow. 37:09C. MercerAnd it says that. 37:10Istora MandiriCivil War. 37:10C. Mercerin the proposal. But it also says, and it suggests, many, many options. 37:16Istora MandiriExplain the mechanism. 37:19C. MercerRight. I… I've… I just have. 37:22Istora MandiriLike, you've said it's civil resistant, but how is it civil resistant? 37:26C. MercerNo, no, no, I'm saying, and then you can implement Sybil-resistant systems, which it lists… here, sorry, I have to find the… 37:35Cody BurnsDon't think we need to vomit on this call, though, at least. Can we take… 37:39C. MercerWhat's that? 37:39Cody BurnsI said, I don't know if we're going to solve it on this call, but can we… 37:42C. MercerNo, of course, of course not, and it's… 37:45Cody BurnsCan we do this as a takeaway? Can… in 2 weeks from now, can we meet back and talk about 3 different options? That way we can at least have something more concrete that we can at least compare and contrast. Because I think right now it's abstract. From a technical level, yes, we could easily put this into the 1559, any of the systems. It's a variable, but the actual implementation, I think, is still… open, because we don't have a solid, these are the next 5 steps that we would do if we decided for this, or this is the model that we would use. So maybe getting clarity on what the actual model is, we can debate between that and then. Is the next step. 38:25C. MercerYeah, that sounds like a great next steps. I mean, we've come… I think in this conversation, we've come a long way. A few weeks ago, people didn't even understand that EIP1559 was necessary for this network. You know, and now, people also didn't understand that, using Type 2 transactions were optional. Right? You still get to use Type 1 transactions if you wanted to. So… so I think there's… there's been, a great educational onboarding happen… happening. The fact that if we want to start getting into the 1113 mechanics, which Which, it, you know, it sounds like we're still ironing out the 111 mechanics, of… 39:14Istora MandiriIn my opinion, like, 11.13. Should come first. Like, we can't really decide how we're going to implement different earlier options unless we have a natural solution that can work. 11.13. Because they depend on each other. 39:40C. MercerWell, it's module, so… and 1113, what's beautiful about that framework is that 1113… so it's actually… 1111 is essentially the Type 2 transactions and the redirect. 1112 is the immutable contract of the Treasury itself, which are bulletproof. I mean, these are contracts that are tried and tested throughout the EVM space. And then 1113 is not client work. 1113 is a module DAO framework that can evolve to the network's needs as time goes on. The beautiful thing with that… Let's say that 113… 40:20Istora MandiriLet's say that 13 is not possible, for some reason, because, I mean, right now we don't know whether it is. Unless you can actually provide some proof that there is a possibility. And if it's not possible. 40:30C. MercerThere is plenty of EVMs. You keep saying there's no proof, there's plenty, this is all built on best practices. 40:38Istora MandiriBut those other projects are not decentralized. They're not a theorem Classic, and there's no way of implementing this bootstrapping mechanism in a fair way. 40:45C. MercerYour alternative is entirely centralized. Try to think about that. This is patching an entirely centralized operation right now that is critical to the network. Try to zoom out and think about that. It is 100% centralized around if, right now, if Diego wants to do client maintenance, you need to think about that. So, you know… 41:12Istora MandiriDiego's not the… 41:13C. MercerThese conversations of funding public goods in a decentralized way are not new. There is so much material on this, so it's just disingenuous to say we don't even know if someone has done this or anything. There is so much material. 41:29Istora MandiriFor example, Danny. 41:30C. MercerIt's… as Cody said, is that you're talking about variables that can be adjusted and modified, but it's not… it's not framed as, oh my gosh, this has never been thought of before. There are so many attempts, and so much… so much stuff to work with, so… 41:47Istora MandiriI'll provide one example. 41:47C. Mercera productive way is to at least look at it that way. In terms… and additionally, as you're doing with things like the L… L-curve smoothing and things like that. You're opening your mind in that realm. You need to also open your mind in the 1113 site as well. There's tons of material to read. 42:08Istora MandiriProvide one example, then, of a system that works in a decentralized way, that you can bootstrap such an important and currently completely decentralized protocol from. 42:18C. MercerRight, and the ECIP has many examples in there. Bright ID. 42:23Istora MandiriThey want to get coin. 42:24C. MercerGitcoin passport, Proof of Humanity, there's so many options here, as Cody was saying, is that there's many options here, and There's going to be… there's going to be so many options. Now that we're ready to have that conversation, we'll have to be sorting through the options. So, as we can pick up on another call, if you want a very detailed call on all of these type of options that are listed there, we can start going through them. 42:50Istora Mandiriit's an extremely important aspect of whether or not this whole thing can be implemented or not. And you're saying, oh yeah, there's so many, we're for sure that one of them's going to be fine, but until we've actually validated that one of them can work with ETC, it seems like we're getting ahead of ourselves. 43:07C. MercerWe're not, because the conversation is evolving right now. Just 2 weeks ago, you didn't believe that 1559 should exist, and you were sending me DMs saying that you were gonna fight it to the end, and now you are on board with 1559. So that's the process of… 43:23Istora MandiriThat's a complete… 43:24C. MercerOf you going through consensus, right? And so, so you're catching up on a conversation, and we understand that. We wrote this, we've done a ton of research on it, so the conversation is evolving there. So if we're gonna evolve into, okay, we're happy with 1111, and we're happy with 11-12, then we can start talking about 11-13 as well. And that's fine, just as Cody agreed with, but just understand that you, like, you are coming along with the Olympia framework, because you're seeing all of the detail and the technical merit that is going on, and how it is adding value to the ETC ecosystem. This is designed to fix a huge problem that we were facing just in December. And it's a problem that we faced numerous times in the past. So, I'm just trying to highlight the bigger picture here, that this is not extreme, this is not rushed, this is 10 years in the making. 44:24Cody BurnsVery passionate about it. So, I guess… We're almost at time here. I think helpful for next time would be a blog post with options that we can discuss, two or three of them. I'll talk with Diego on… Looking at the 1559 work, so we… It sounds like it… in some implementation or another, it's coming, so we need to start looking at how we'll get a testnet set up for it. from, I guess, just the tactical things that we can do while we're working on the social consensus for How or if the governance will come into play? So… Chris, if you can put together a blog post with Three or four options that we can talk through next time. I think that would be helpful. And then the story, if we could do this again in two weeks, would that… well, let me see if America can do it in two weeks. Yeah, we're still good. Three weeks is Thanksgiving. 45:27C. MercerYeah, yeah, I was… I was thinking about that, so… 45:31Cody BurnsBut I think these are useful, I mean… 45:33Istora MandiriI mean, there's still things that I'd like to talk about, if you don't mind, if you have time. I mean, I gotta try. 45:37Cody Burnsin 4 minutes. I mean, yes, definitely stay on, keep talking. 45:42Istora MandiriStill, still, I mean, Diego still brought up the idea of whether we want to do it in two forks or one fork? And currently, I mean, I don't know what Olympia's proposing, but it seems like multiple forks, and… I think, like, people have different opinions on how we should do this, and it really matters, like, getting the whole package. We can't just say, oh, let's create this address and dump things there, and maybe we'll use it in the future if this future voting system works. We need to really figure things out before we actually start proposing that, oh yeah, we're gonna do this hard fork next year. Because that's… that's like it. 46:18C. MercerRight, I would just say that, I think 11.11 and 1112 are the client work, the other stuff is outside of the client. So, in terms of when you're thinking about a hard fork, you're essentially… it's the redirect and the address are… the address or the L-curve smoothing are kind of the… hard fork client upgrade elements, and then… The 11, 13, and 11, 14 are outside of… Client, Hard fork requirements. Also, if Cody has to hop off, I don't know if you guys, for housekeeping stuff, if you guys had talked about the Discord update or any of those things, How… how is… how is that going? And then, and, and just, These calls are helpful, so it's good that you're coming back and hosting these again, so thank you. 47:17Istora MandiriYeah, I guess… we can wrap things up now. Thank you for joining, I'm hoping that we can continue the discussion, and I will… Continue doing the call. With regards to Discord, I did not mention it yet. If you… if you'd like to, feel free to… to talk about that now. I think we're gonna update the Ethereum Classic website to change the default Discord server to a new server. 47:50C. MercerRight, right, so I thought maybe you guys had talked about that before I had joined, just because Cody had mentioned that, you guys would talk about it on the call. So, anyways, it's just a PR, and it's just changing the highlighted links to a maintained server, that… you know, we'll have active maintainers, we'll have elevated roles to be able to maintain the server, hopefully spread it out. The current server, is, owned by a single person named Miko. Miko has just been absent, although, you know, I just saw him post something, Or do something, re- recently. But he's generally been absent for, at least since 2023. 48:36Istora MandiriYep, and the current server is basically overrun with bots, and it's difficult to maintain discussion. 48:42C. MercerRight, and so the only goal is to just put productive conversations in a place that has automated purging of scammers and spam and things like that, and so it's just building a professional setting for chatting. The other legacy Discord is still listed on the website right next to it. Right now, both this Discord is listed. It's just… it's… the old one is the highlighted one, and we're just changing it so that the highlight on the website takes people to the new maintained one. I think that it's about time now, because I believe there's only one person that is maintaining the old server, and just moderating the old server, and that's Justin. And and it's just, you know, the poor guy, he comes in every single day, and it's, you know, not hundreds, but tens of scams every single morning on the server, so… 49:40Istora MandiriYeah, and hopefully this also opens the door to, like, more integrations and automations that were not possible on the old server, because they require admin access. And things like events being listed and that kind of stuff, so nice things to have. And it's a fresh start and all that. 49:56C. MercerYeah, and I think, I think that, that's a great point of now, with so many new tooling, and, like, all of these LLM agents and everything, is that we can add automation and so much. So, hopefully, hopefully that's the goal, and And it'd be great if ETC had a lot more automation in his pipeline, so that You know, our small little group of contributors, can use their time wisely. 50:25Istora MandiriYep. I did want to mention, as you're on the call, that one of the things that I was kind of… mmm, sort of. Unsettled by was the… the framing of Olympia in its announcements, and the kind of… the idea that this is a settled thing, and that it's gonna happen next year, and… it made it seem like it was reaching consensus where it maybe didn't necessarily have it. And I understand that I wasn't here for the whole of earlier this year, but, you know, plenty of people have made their voices heard, and I don't think it really had the level of consensus that It seemed to be claiming to have on the, on the announcements that have been made on various Ethereum or official-ish looking things, so… I just wanted to flag that, and that was the main thing that I was, like. What's happening here? 51:28C. MercerRight, so, I think you were… you've been absent, and then I believe you're referencing maybe… is it 2 or 3 more people that have, been vocal with you that didn't understand 1559, didn't understand its opt-in? That it's an additive transaction type. I mean, these are non-technical people that have opinions that generally their opinions were reviewed, and they weren't even technically accurate. Of, I believe it was, like I said, it was maybe 4 of you guys. But there was a call about this. It was held on Discord, and then that had issues, and then it migrated to Twitter, and that was kind of an initial… temperature check on, you know, what became Olympia. So there's been discussion on this. You've been, as I said, you've been away. 52:29Istora MandiriShe didn't need the Olympics. 52:30C. Mercerframework has had, you know, over 300,000 views. Generally, most… 52:36Istora MandiriThat's amazing. 52:36C. Mercergenerally positive. And neutral to positive, and then… 52:43Istora MandiriIf you're looking at BCIP. 52:44C. Mercerin and, you came in and sent me some DMs saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, you're trying to hijack the network, essentially, and it's like, my man, where have you been? You know, what are you doing? 52:55Istora MandiriI've been in the ECIP discussion thread, and the only response is a negative. 53:00C. MercerNo, it's just… it's just you and Zhang. It's just you and Zhang. 53:04Istora MandiriMe and Zhang and, Diego, there have been people that have been proposing different things. 53:10C. MercerDiego is not… not negative. In fact, Diego is working within the Olympia framework, so I'm not sure… But… but anyways, Astora… and then… and then I think you sent… you sent me a threat saying I needed to withdraw to save face. I mean, there's plenty of… plenty of things that you've done, in the, you know, since you've came back that are a little hairy, but, But, you know, if your thing is that I was gone, and the network, you know, started moving through something that's been talked about for about 10 years now, you know, building some sort of way to fund the critical public goods of this network. It's been something since ETC Dev. Right? The multi-sig address was set up specifically to do this, and they talked about building an entire on-chain voting system to distribute funds. You know? So this is something that, since 2016, has been a topic And what we were facing when you were absent was we were facing… Two of the core developers had just been fired. The executive director left. Donald McIntyre was writing that they're running out of funds, and it's gonna be up to someone else to handle the maintenance of the network, and it's no longer their priority. It's in one of his blog posts. And so that was the climate, that was the climate. 54:38Istora MandiriThere's no way. 54:39C. Mercerhappening prior. 54:40Istora MandiriThere's no way you could have reached consensus. There's no, like, in less than a year, and you don't even know what the mechanisms are going to be yet for this proposal, as we've discussed on this call. 54:50C. MercerAstora, Astora, you're… 54:52Istora Mandiriany claim. 54:53C. MercerYou're talking about fine details, but… but you're… 54:57Istora MandiriExtreme Party. 54:58C. MercerYou are on consensus that 1559 needs to be implemented, right? You're already on consensus with that. See, you've already moved to… 55:07Istora MandiriThat's not Olympia. 55:09C. MercerSo, so I'm just, I'm just… like, your framing of that, oh, I didn't know about it, so consensus wasn't formed isn't accurate. There's been… there's been talk about… 55:19Istora Mandiri15, 50… 55:20C. Mercer9 and doing… implementing a redirect and things like this, and then long-term funding, we understand that Type 2 transactions will generate $0 on the day that they are implemented, because you have to opt into them, right? And so, you're talking about… Many things down the road, but you're generally starting to come down the path of consensus there. And the alternative of people that… I think it's just been you and Donald are the two that… vocal people. Donald is totally ferocifying, which is deprecating the network. These aren't, you know, these aren't realistic conversations to have. We're not gonna ossify. If… how do you maintain EVM compatibility in Ossify? You're… it's… it's an. 56:05Istora MandiriIf you're changing the subject, I'm saying that you should not have announced that Olympia, a Treasury, is happening next year. That's what I'm saying. 56:13C. MercerFu- if you're following the conversation. We're already starting to talk about the implementations of a treasury right now. I understand that you might have a hard… position where you are against any sort of treasuries, but I'm letting you know right now… 56:31Istora Mandirithat you should not have announced it. 56:32C. Mercerabout it right now, and on these calls, and that we're talking about implementation. This is… this is the… the final stuff of consensus, right? Of the final implementation stuff. We're already kind of aligned with this general framework. It's already… it's already… kind of the ethos. And so, you know, I appreciate that you are, you know, doing the due diligence and all of this. It would have been great if you were here a year ago, when conversations and ideas were getting kicked around, But anyways, you know, and you were here in 2021 and 2022 when, like, this base fee reduction was talked about. So, you know… 57:17Istora Mandiriwhen we both rejected a protocol layer treasury, Ethereum Classic Cloud. 57:21C. MercerNo, we didn't. We rejected a centralized, hard-coded team. 57:26Istora MandiriProtocol layering. That's the issue. 57:29C. MercerWe rejected IOHK's hard-coding 20% debt, minor tax. You know, things like that. It's… and that's… and if… if you're gonna frame any Olympia in any sort of way as comparable to IOHK's… proposal, I mean, these are just drastically different worlds with drastically different approaches. You know, no one's trying to, hijack the… the coin reward, right? The block reward. no one's doing that, right? It's a whole system built on Type 2 transactions. Aligning everyone around a robust fee market, which is good for everyone, that's literally what this entire system's designed about, is how do we build a robust fee market so as block rewards go off, miners continue to have incentives, right? To secure the network. So… so it's just drastically different, so it's… it's difficult to… And you're phrasing it in this way that paints anyone that's trying to solve problems as, you know. Having some, negative connotation to their actions. It's difficult, especially when you weren't even present. 58:47Istora MandiriI've already explained. 58:48C. MercerAnd now you've positioned yourself as the sole person that gets to decide if consensus was formed or not. 58:57Istora MandiriI'm saying, if there's major pushback, then you can't claim that consensus exists. 59:01C. MercerThere isn't major pushback, there's you and Donald. 59:05Istora MandiriSo, are you claiming that consensus over this does exist? 59:09C. MercerI'm claiming that… I'm claiming that it's very apparent that, they're a. 59:15Istora MandiriDo you have consent? 59:15C. Mercerconsensus for this. I think that… I think that even you are coming to consensus, but you may not realize it right now. And that's fine, you know? 59:24Istora MandiriPretty clear, your position is that we already have consensus on Olympia implementing the Treasury, and you were correct to announce it, that it's happening next year. That's your position right now. 59:35C. MercerIf that's what you believe. If that's what you believe… 59:38Istora MandiriI'm asking you. That's what those. 59:39C. MercerThe article stated, you know, if that's how you feel. But I think it's important for you to… for you to realize that… Astora, you don't get to hijack the network and, oh, it's whatever you say, right? You are not solving problems. You're not solving. 59:58Istora MandiriI'd be proud. 59:59C. MercerYou haven't proposed any ECIP. You haven't done… 1:00:02Istora MandiriAnything, you're… 1:00:03C. MercerJust realize that. And so… So, that is what it is. This is the only… 1:00:11Istora MandiriAll I'm doing. 1:00:12C. Mercerlogical path forward that has been proposed. This is the only logical ECIP 1,000 compliant path that is there. 1:00:23Istora MandiriIf we already have consensus, why are we even discussing it? 1:00:27C. MercerCurrently, if you're not realizing with the calls, is that we're actually talking about implementation details right now. For instance, the follow-up call to this is now we're moving on to talking about like, Cody is talking with Diego about implementing the 11-11 redirect. And then… and then, you know, the details of the little, variables in there are what's left to be decided in that. Now. 1112 is generally bulletproof, because it's just a contract, and, you know, it's using open source contracts that are heavily audited, so there's not a lot of discussion there. Now we're moving into the details of 1113, right? So, I don't know what you think is happening, but these are conversations about implementation of these elements that were drafted and are the only ESAIPs about the future of Ethereum Classic. The alternative that which has been proposed is to ossify and do nothing. That is not what's happening here. So, I don't… I don't know how you want to frame that in your mind, but I'm just… I'm just trying to… my observation is that these are the… these are the things that are happening. Right before us. 1:01:52Istora MandiriSo, Olympia is happening next year? 1:01:57C. MercerI guess we'll see what, what… when a final block is… is decided and everything, but as you can see, is that you are literally talking about the implementation of Olympia right now. You're talking about… The past two calls, that is what you're talking about. So. 1:02:14Istora Mandiriabout the implementation of something like 1559. 1:02:18C. MercerRight, which is part of Olympia, which is… which is the… 1:02:22Istora MandiriYou know. 1:02:22C. Mercer11-11. 1:02:24Istora MandiriThey're different things, though. There's… 1:02:26C. MercerThey're not. 1:02:26Istora MandiriOlympia's a Treasury proposal. 1:02:31C. MercerIf that's what's… if that's what you believe, Olympia is a framework that's… That's… 1:02:36Istora MandiriI mean, that's… that's what. 1:02:37C. MercerSo, implementing 1559 and deciding what to do with it. So… 1:02:45Istora MandiriI mean, in all the announcements about Olympia, the main thing is that it's a treasury, so… I don't know how you untangle those two concepts. 1:02:53C. MercerWell, it's… it's modular, so it's… it's good to understand that there's 4 ECIPs. And so, you're working through the elements of them right now. 1:03:04Istora MandiriThey depend on each other, though, so they're not completely independent modules. 1:03:11C. MercerRight, 11, as I stated earlier, 11, 11, and 11, 12 are the client work, and then 13 is the modular. Dow, Treasury, governance work. And then, 1114 is the proposal framework. 1:03:32Istora MandiriOkay. 1:03:32C. MercerAnyways… 1:03:33Istora Mandiridoesn't work, then 12 doesn't work, and if 12 doesn't work, then… Like, maybe 11.11 is implemented in a different way, in a completely different ECIP. So, to say that we're already talking about implementing Olympia, I think is disingenuous. Like, we haven't decided… 1:03:51C. MercerI think your framing is a bit disingenuous, because you're not acknowledging that you are doing that. You're literally talking about I think the last call was the L-curve smoothing, which I think is a good idea, but it's just a minor adjustment of, as Cody said on the call, was… I mean, you're talking about, like, the percentages of the redirect, and I think that adding long-term minor, benefits and helping our security budget, through the L-curve is a good idea. It's something that wasn't on my radar, and I'm happy that that came up through, I believe it was Diego. And And the beautiful thing is that, you know, through these conversations, since we're talking about very minor things, it's very easy to update the ECIPs to reflect that. And that's… and the implementation details are kind of going on right now that are… are ironing those things out. So, I mean, that's the reality that we're in right now. 1:04:48Istora MandiriDown the line. 1:04:49C. MercerThat, that is. 1:04:49Istora Mandiridown the line. Sure. What if down the line. It turns out that a treasury is not something that works out, and instead it's only an Lsmooth mechanism or something else like that. Is it still quit? 1:05:02C. MercerI believe that… I believe that that would be a percentage thing, right? That would be deciding a percentage of the L-curve smoothing. 1:05:10Istora MandiriWhat if it's 0%? 1:05:11C. MercerBut then you'll have to talk about how you decentrally fund client maintenance And things like that. How do you support everything? Because right now, I think your proposal was to just have Bitman pay for everything. 1:05:28Istora MandiriI don't believe I have a proposal, currently. I'm just saying, be like Bitcoin. 1:05:33C. MercerI thought that… I thought that your… in our chats, I thought that your suggestion was that… that Wales or Bitmain or something like that would just pay for everything like we've been having. You know, the model that keeps failing every 2 to 3 years. 1:05:53Istora MandiriI'm saying we should emulate Bitcoin. And other decentralized chains? 1:05:59C. MercerDoes Bitcoin have the maintenance requirements as Ethereum Classic? 1:06:09Istora MandiriI don't think that's really the limiting factor for Bitcoin. I think there's plenty of… Research and funding going on, regardless? And actually, like, the… The things that you're talking about, funding with. The meagre amounts that you'll get from the transaction fees. They're also not going to fund Enough. 1:06:37C. MercerRight, that's true if you believe that we will not have a transaction fee market, but if that's the case, then we also won't have any network security because the block rewards are going off. So, you understand that if you say that there will be no transaction fees, then you're also saying that there will be no hash rate to secure the network. So, these are the type of conversations that it's important to… it's important to tether to reality. And try to build the proper incentives, you know. into the system. to be self-sustaining in the long term, and have a long-term viewpoint, opposed to, who's gonna pay for stuff today, and it's not my problem, but someone else should put the money in, and I'm gonna tell them how to spend their money, right? And so, you know. the current… the current approach of Donald, for instance, who was receiving $144,000 of those funds a year, and then was let go, to write blog post articles, Donald, you know. his approach is, well, there should just be a centralized organization that controls all of development on Ethereum Classic, and You know, I don't think that many people would agree that that's… a decentralized and in the ethos of Ethereum Classics. So, you know, hopefully we can take this opportunity to solve those type of things in the long term. There will be stopgaps that are required. Right now, I think Bitmain is… hiring, as Cody mentioned, is hiring two core developers to try to fill the stopgap while it's necessary, but to say that there's not gonna be any transaction fees in the future is, you know, is a pretty bleak outlook for Ethereum Classic, I would say, Astora. So… Anyways, I'm happy to chat with you offline, since it's just me and you talking. We can have our differences, but what's nice to see is that it seems like, at least. The few accounts that had opposition to 1559, even if they technically didn't understand that it's entirely additive and opt-in and legacy transactions still exist, the legacy free market still exists. I love those things. Those accounts are starting to move over to where I… it's hard for me not to say that, you know, we're on an inevitable path here, so… happy to continue to join the calls, and I'll be prepared with, you know, a few examples of 1113 frameworks that we can start considering for You know, the initial implementation conversations. 1:09:28Istora MandiriOkay. Sounds good. I would just hope that we can be, realistic about the status of this thing, and the… the inevitability That you're claiming? doesn't really serve to actually make it more inevitable. You can't manifest this just by saying it so. It's gonna be a long process, and there's a lot of details to work out, and it might not work, is all I'm saying. So let's see. 1:10:03C. MercerRight, Astora, and I just… I just wanna… mentioned that Cody, myself, you know. Diego, people that are working on solving these problems and maintaining EVM compatibility are showing up and doing the work, and so… You're right, if someone just… Tried to do a change and didn't… and didn't, didn't follow through at all, or didn't, you know, adjust and think, and… you know, creatively solve the problems, I think that would be the case, but that's not what anyone's observing here. So, we're seeing problem solving happen in Ethereum Classic, and it's great. It's a great thing. So, I hope that You know, you'll continue to engage in good faith, and And I think… I think that… Ethereum Classic in the end of… at the end of this will come out very strong. And in a better position than it was, when the core team was deprecated, after the spiral update, you know, in 2024. So, that's the goal, you know? And it's… it's following the ECIP1000 process to do so. 1:11:18Istora MandiriOkay, cool. Well, that's a good place, I think, to ask for any final comments. I know we have some other people in the chat room. Did anyone want to jump in before we wrap things up and say… Say your piece, if you have any? I can still see her. a familiar… Familiar handle. Is that Brolo? 1:11:46lalHello, guys, can you hear me? 1:11:49Istora MandiriHey, Brolout, long time no speak. How's it going? 1:11:52lalI'm good. How are you? Just dropping by to say hi, and I'm glad to see that people are taking a closer look to increase proposals. One thing that I wanted to say is that… And I said it, I think some months ago. It's also about the legitimacy, the… the proposers. Are having, in the sense that it's also somehow political. I think that, A path forward is to… to keep core development in the U.S. area. I think this should be also… Something to think about, and Even if it's under the, LLC, right? It also gives some sort of legitimacy and accountability about What would be the path forward? As for the voting system, where I ordered the… What decides that? It's complicated, but… Solutions should be… it should be safe. It is nice, hearing you on. 1:13:27Istora MandiriThanks for joining, Brolal, and thanks for the comments. Yeah, I think the… The LLC is one of the question marks of the proposal, and we didn't get much time to talk about that one, but . 1:13:39C. MercerYeah, I'm happy to… I'm happy to drop just, like, a quick note on that LLC and the concept of that, which, you know, is derived from, I believe, a community call 11 or 12. Back in 2021, 2022, between me and you. And it was… it's just generally, in the United States at that time, there was a new entity, that was brought in in Wyoming was the state. And what it enables us to do is it enables us to legally hold anyone that has to do fun… any sort of… Fund, handling? outside of the network, it allows us legal recourse for, against them if they were to do something that was not desired by the Treasury DAO system. And so, I don't know if that exists in a different country, but… It… it's… A legal framework that those people just remember that the 11-12 contract is non-custodial and immutable. So, the LLC doesn't actually hold any funds or maintain any funds. This is essentially an edge case where if someone doesn't want to receive payment in ETC on the ETC network, and they want fiat payments. and they want tax forms from a U.S. tax entity, for their 1099 work, which is contract work. This is an entity that would be able to take the funds convert them, essentially, into U.S. dollars, and then pay that contractor, and then issue them a tax form. And so, that is kind of the edge case that's going on with that. And so, you know, it's been… Twisted and confused a little bit, where… Some people believe that that LLC would be the controller of the funds. The ECIP explicitly states that they have no control over those funds. the on-chain process would essentially, instead of paying the contractor directly, would pay the LLC, which would convert it to US dollars, and then pay them. So, it's just… it's just a way… it's… it's called a… it's like a legal wrapper, is, I think, how, people call them these days. But it's a way to work within the fiat framework. and in the hiring process that some companies may have where they do not accept on-chain payments. And so, so anyways, so that's generally what's happening there. And then if you read about it, the operating agreement, you know, you set an operating agreement, you set a contract that's on-chain, and that's all registered with the state. You know, if there was any actions that were against what the Dow did. Or had voted on, then, you'd be able to file a lawsuit against the person that was handling the money and did the actions that, weren't voted on, right? So that's kind of… it's a legal protection framework. 1:16:54Istora MandiriHow… how does the protocol elect who controls the LLC? 1:17:01C. MercerThe protocol does not… that could probably be something that was done within the proposal framework? And so, that would be… 1:17:11Istora MandiriHuh. 1:17:12C. MercerYou know, what, 11, 14? 1:17:14Istora MandiriHow do we reflect the wishes of stakeholders? How do we determine what people want to do with regards to who gets to control the LLC? 1:17:27C. MercerHow do we, can you… can you rephrase? What do you mean by that question? 1:17:32Istora MandiriSo, ETC stakeholders, miners, developers, people that hold the token, How do they… How, in a decentralized way. Does the decision become made of who gets to control the LLC? And how can their wishes be accurately reflected? 1:17:54C. MercerRight, and so… so again, this would just be through the standard proposal process, right? 1:18:00Istora MandiriWhich comes later in 114, right? 1:18:03C. MercerRight. 1:18:04Istora MandiriWhich relies on 113. 1:18:08C. MercerWell, 113 is the, on-chain mechanisms, right? The 114 is the off-chain, like. process similar to how the ECIP has a process. how we have that ECIP1000, right? 1:18:25Istora MandiriSo, so how do… How do you reflect the wishes of ETC stakeholders in deciding the LLC owner? Specifically. 1:18:38C. MercerI guess I'm a bit confused on what's the issue with the LLC owner. Wouldn't you just be able to put a proposal for that. 1:18:49Istora MandiriSure, you can put a proposal, but how do you vote on the proposal? Who gets to vote? 1:18:56C. MercerRight, and this is… this is the… this is what you just asked about of the entire 11-13 framework about 15 or 30 minutes ago, right? You're asking for a specific on how you want the Dow to be managed, but… 1:19:10Istora MandiriWhat I'm saying is they're all integrated. 1:19:12C. Mercerbeen, right? 1:19:13Istora MandiriLike, 112 depends… 112 depends on 114, depends on 113, and if you can't do 112, then… Like, they… 1:19:22C. MercerU112? 1:19:24Istora MandiriBecause you need to elect the LLC. 1:19:28C. MercerWhy do you need to… Why? Why? 1:19:32Istora MandiriI mean, it's part of the proposal. 112 includes the LLC, right? For fear of interfacing. 1:19:40C. MercerNo, it doesn't. 1:19:41Istora MandiriI'm reading… I'm reading 112 right now. 1:19:43C. Mercer112 is the on-chain treasury contract. 1:19:48Istora MandiriAnd there's a paragraph right here that says, off-chain fear interfacing and Administration Execution. will be performed by Ethereum Classic Dow LLC. That's part of 1.2. 1:19:58C. MercerRight? That it's… It's the ownership of and the proposals and what you're talking about is not part of… 1, 2. The Treasury contract is 1-2. The mention of the LLC is… that's continuity between the other ones, but it's not defined there. it's not a blocker in any sort of client work at all, because, as I just mentioned, the LLC has no control over the Treasury contract. that the LLC is only there to… just as if you submitted a proposal and you were successful in a proposal, funds would be released to your address. The same is true with the LLC of funds would be released to the LLC. Granted, it would be released in a way where they are now required to do some sort of actions, which is, like, pay a contractor in fiat. For work for winning a proposal, so… The LLC itself does not control… the immutable Treasury contract. I think that that's maybe where the confusion is coming from. 1:21:15Istora MandiriI'm not saying they're controlling it. But they are… defined in 112. 1:21:22C. MercerRight, they're mentioned in 112, you're right. 1:21:24Istora MandiriYeah. 1:21:25C. Mercerthey're mentioned. 1:21:27Istora MandiriOkay. 1:21:28C. MercerThat's true. 1:21:34Istora MandiriSo, to go through the step-by-step process of how this LLC is elected. There'd be some kind of on-chain vote. There'll be a proposal, then a vote for that. 1:21:49C. MercerSo… So, Astoria, I think what… I'm looking up your reference here, and it says… maybe we should just read it, it says, off-chain fiat interfacing and administrative execution, where required, shall be performed by the Ethereum Classic DAO LLC. 1:22:05Istora MandiriHmm. 1:22:05C. MercerA legal registered entity that operates strictly under binding instructions from the Olympia Dow governance, that would be 1113, with no discretionary authority, right? And so, again, this is just a legal wrapper where, it just… it's essentially what you see with ETC Co-op, how they take Grayscale's money, and then they hold it, and then they're paying out developers. It's a way to do that type of… off-chain fiat interfacing, but it's legally bound to whatever the Dow decides on-chain because of the Wyoming Dow LLC. 1:22:45Istora MandiriFramework. So, you said before that we're already talking about… we've basically decided that we've implemented 112. But this is, like, a treasury contract, right? 1:22:58C. MercerYeah, well, this is an example of a Treasury contract. I believe you said… you said that, we needed to have Treasury contracts in there, and so we've… we've added an example of that. 1:23:10Istora MandiriSorry, I said that you need a Treasury contract? 1:23:13C. MercerNo, one of your feedbacks in July was that you wanted more details, and so are you mentioning that… are you looking at the create to address deviation? What… what are you referencing out of… 11, 12. 1:23:28Istora MandiriYeah, so 1112 is the Olympia Treasury. 1:23:32C. MercerRight. Alright. And what element are you asking about? In there? 1:23:41Istora MandiriHow is this Treasury contract becoming… immutable. After deployment. it says it shall remain immutable with no proxy patterns, upgrade hooks, or other owner privileges. So, when this thing is defined. How is it upgraded to 113? 1:24:06C. MercerRight? So… I believe the Treasury contract itself is deployed, and then that does not change. And it's the address of the deployer. Well, I guess the Dow framework… my understanding, the Dow framework has… the Delph… Sorry. Okay, so… the specifications… The Olympia Treasury contract shall be deployed at a fixed Deterministic address. This address shall be hard-coded into Ethereum Classic's consensus logic as defined in 1111. As the canological recipient of the base fee, right? And then… 1:25:25Istora MandiriIn 1.3, it says the Treasury shall remain immutable with no proxy patterns, upgrade hooks, or owner privileges. Because if it has the ability to be upgraded at this point, then the question is, who gets to do that? 1:25:58C. MercerRight, so you're asking how the Dow upgrades, so this is 1113, and… States, upgradable governance logic. Governments' models may be upgraded via on-chain proposal subject to quorum, threshold, and time lock. 1:26:14Istora MandiriI'm… 1:26:14C. MercerThe Treasury contract shall remain permanently immutable. 1:26:19Istora MandiriYeah. 1:26:21C. MercerNo admin privileges, no centralized entity shall hold override powers or be able to execute Treasury disbursements. outside of the Dow process. Right, and so you're asking me how the Dow process works, and, you know. 1:26:34Istora MandiriNo, no, no. 1:26:35C. MercerThat's all that's what we're talking about. 1:26:37Istora MandiriI'm asking how the Treasury goes from… like, in your proposal, you're modularly deploying this stuff, so you have 1112, which is the Treasury first, and that's immutable, you can't change it. But then later on comes the DAO, or some other contract system. How does the Treasury get told that now the Dow's in charge? Who gets to control that? 1:27:58C. MercerSo I think maybe you're asking about the execution logic that's laid out here, and… 1113? 1:28:08Istora MandiriWhere am I looking? No, this is about proposals, I'm talking about the Treasury contract. Would you prefer to go into detail on the next call? 1:29:48C. MercerI mean, sure, yeah, it's probably… I think you're asking me, a question that's probably better suited for Cody, in terms of the implementation of it, but… 1:29:58Istora MandiriOkay. 1:30:00C. MercerI'd guess that… I'd guess that it's… it's probably, written in there. I just… I… I don't have it right up… right here. 1:30:11Istora MandiriOkay. 1:30:18C. MercerAnd again, what was your question? It was… How… 1:30:23Istora MandiriHow is the immutable Treasury contract updated to be informed of which voting token DAO, or whatever system, governance system you want to put in there. Is in control of it. If it's done in a modular way. I guess I can add this to a topic for next week? Next, next month? 1:31:33C. MercerYeah, I think, yeah, I think, it sounds like getting into 1113 stuff. Would be great for the next call. 1:31:44Istora MandiriJust to be clear, this is, 11-12, I believe, the Treasury contract. 1:31:49C. MercerRight, but it's… it's related to changes when you change the 1113, right? 1:31:57Istora MandiriWell, I'd assume that if it's immutable, there'd need to be a built-in mechanism to upgrade, and that would be part of 111.2. Unless you're talking about doing a hard fork, and then it's not really immutable. 1:32:10C. MercerRight, and I think there's… I'm finding the section right here, I think it says governance integration. So, I think we'll pick up on that. That sounds great. Like, great topics for the next call. 1:32:22Istora MandiriSounds good. Well, thank you for your time, and I'm glad we can… have these discussions once again, it's been a while. I do apologize for not being present all the time, but sometimes… You know, you gotta make, You gotta balance your life out. But I'm back, so, I'll continue doing the calls. 1:32:46C. MercerSounds great. Good to have you back. Same thing going on over here. That's why I missed your last call. 1:32:53Istora MandiriCheers, Chris. See you next month. Bye-bye.

The Path To 1559

AI Generated Summary

Key takeaways

Brainstorm topics

EIP-1559 Implementation Options

Olympia Treasury System

Transaction Fee Economics

ETC Ecosystem Funding and Development

Discord Server Update

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