Fifty and Counting

0:12Istora MandiriHello, and welcome to Ethereum Classic Community Call number 50, the Big Five-O. Today is Friday, April 17th, 2016. This community call is an open voice chat to discuss Ethereum Classic. Everyone is welcome. The call be published on YouTube. We kindly ask that discussion stays focused on ideas rather than individuals, and let's keep it classy. The next call is scheduled for the 1st of May. Join us in the green room, one hour before the scheduled call, for an unrecorded Hangout. Same time, same place, just like we had now, for an hour. Thanks for everyone for joining the green room. It was a nice little discussion we just had. You can find past episodes, transcripts, and subscribe to the calendar and more at cc.ethroneclassic.org. The last call was a bit tech-heavy, so this week we're gonna try and keep things more higher level and free-flowing discussion, answer more philosophical aspects near the end of the call. But we do have some things to cover first, in terms of updates and LMP discussion, and… Development updates. But first, before we… jump into that. Let's go through our round of introductions. So, first, I'll say hello, I'm Astora. I've been hosting these calls for 50 calls now. Hi everyone, thanks for joining. Let's say hello next to JustGen. Justin, you're on mute. We'll join you later. How about Luna? 1:48Lunar WardenHello guys, Tuner, nice to, nice to be here. I'm a DeFi teacher, I'm talking about DC. 1:57Istora MandiriThank you, Luna. We have a new, participant this week, Citrullin. Would you like to say hello? Yeah. 2:06CitrullinThat's your name? Yeah, citrulline is fine. Just alright Yeah, so my background is I used to work for the IOTA Foundation, was now heavily involved in Ethereum, and see it now, sadly, failing on a social front, so I thought maybe… maybe go back to the roots might be a good idea. Let's see. 2:31Istora MandiriYeah, let's see. We're still trying to continue that original goal, so hopefully Together, we do a good job, and thanks for… Your interest in the… the project. Codeaholic? 2:45codeaholicHey, Codeaholic here. I'm a dev, and I like building with blockchain, only more recently. Been really interested in the core itself as well, but, primarily building in the web. I'll be in the server a lot if you want to talk about the technology and stuff like that. But, nice to meet everybody again. 3:11Istora MandiriThank you, Codeaholic, and thanks for joining, and thanks for your PRs, regarding quantum security. And… And I see him. Which, I believe we mentioned before the call that we might talk about again next week. So you have some time to prepare that. Sorry, not next week, next call, which is 2 weeks. How about Justin? 3:35JustjinHey, what's going on, guys? Yeah, I just didn't… ETC supporter for it, and, specialize in auto mechanics. We'll see. 3:49Istora MandiriCool, thanks for joining again, Justin. Good to see you, as always. Diego? 3:56Diego L.L.Yeah, hello everyone, Diego here, core blockchain developer for… the Ethereum… Ethereum Classic clients, well, a few other things. 4:12Istora MandiriAwesome. Diego, thanks again for joining, and I believe we have Luna. 4:20Lunar WardenYeah, can I introduce myself? Yes. 4:23Istora MandiriOh, sorry, sorry. Okay, I think we got everyone. Okay. All right, thanks everyone for joining, and we'll… we'll just dive in. So… I'm gonna add a new ETC in the news section, in case there's anything that happens in the… the, I guess, somewhat mainstream media about ETC, and between now and the last call. there was an official announcement from Japan about ETC being specifically added to their green list, aptly named. And basically, in Japan, ETC is now regulated in a certain way that makes it easier to include on exchange listings, which is really nice. I'm not sure how many Japanese exchanges list ETC, but… Now it should be super easy, because it has this seal of approval. So, that's great news, especially if you live in Japan, and Want to use ETC? Next, pull requests corner. So, there's been no merges into the main repo since the last call, but there has been a lot of development updates, commits that are not necessarily merged. And some that have been merged, but just not in the main, community repos. So we'll talk about that in the next section. I should also mention now that I closed the ECIP 1120 article. that announces it, because it's been basically open for a long time, and it's kind of out of date now, so I think between now and the next call. We're gonna make some updates to the EECIP1120 dev website, and also propose a new article for the website that hopefully is a bit fresher. And there'll still be no update on the 1121, ECIP, which is about, bundling a bunch of EIPs together into the next fork, basically, which was discussed on previous calls with Cody, the author. So… Since the authors basically unresponsive to this, I propose that we create a new ECIP with the candidates that we discussed on the previous call, Diego, and I believe that That set is a… is more… aligned with Ethereum Classic. actual mechanics, because the 1121 has some things, as we discussed previously, that are maybe not so relevant. So I'll be working that… working on that PR in… The next two weeks as well. So, let's move on to the ETC Cooperative Development Update, and Diego, shall I let you run with these? 7:01Diego L.L.Yeah, true. I have some notes, give me one second, yeah. Here, so, yeah, on the last call, I mentioned that I opened a request, to the GoEthereum upstream. for a… for a situation that is, presented into the PLW networks, and… Thankfully, that has been merged, so I'm waiting for the next, release of the GoEthereum upstream, which is 1.17.3. And then I will rebase what I've been calling so far, the Ethereum Class… go Ethereum Classic. client, on top of that, that, that one should… should run pretty well. I… I've been running… upstream plus this fix… No, the previous release plus this fix. Has been working well for, like, more than two weeks, so yeah, I think that's good news, and I will probably promote it to… to testing, so people can freely use it and hopefully report some feedback. Also, I… yeah, go ahead. 8:17Istora MandiriCould I, with the… this… the Go Ethereum Classic, do you have, like, a… A rollout plan in mind of… When and how… Client users. 8:32Diego L.L.as well. 8:32Istora MandiriWe'll migrate to the version, and what will be… The repo situation be with that? 8:40Diego L.L.Yeah, I'm not quite sure about that, honestly. I don't know, I… same thing as with Nethermine, I mean, it will heavily depend on the users, on how much traction we can get with any of these clients. probably, I mean, I don't know, hopefully people will start using some of these clients more than, for example, I don't know, CoreGath, which is the default. option right now, and we can make a, like, a more conscious decision, about what to do with the future of CoreGet, for example. But for now, I don't know, I'm… I'm just focused on presenting different alternatives for the… for the users. I… My intention is to keep maintaining as many clients as I could. yeah, hopefully someone else could jump in and will be interested into, yeah, also maintaining this appliance. It's quite interesting, it's, it's quite a ride. 9:42Istora MandiriCool. I guess, are there any other people on the call that currently run Ethereum Classic clients? And… I'm assuming you're using Geth, cool Geth? Do you have any… Thoughts, if you are running clients on… What's informing your decision-making about what to… to be running? 10:07Lunar WardenI hope… 10:07JustjinWell, I'm running them off and on. 10:09Lunar Wardenrunning at the end. 10:12Istora MandiriJustin, go ahead, could you say that again? 10:16JustjinYeah, I run them off and on, because I gotta test some stuff and whatever, but… Like, like… The motor testing and all that stuff, so… Yeah, but it would be a lot… like, I'm trying to, like, because I was thinking maybe make a, like, an ID or something like that, and then, like, so that it would be easier for people to just, you know, connect and all that stuff, so instead of all the terminal… terminal stuff. But, yeah. But then, like, I was… yeah. 10:51Istora MandiriI believe there's, like, already some kind of inter… IDEs facility, like, Remix. If I remember. 10:58JustjinYes. 10:58Istora MandiriAnd you… 10:59JustjinYeah, that's what I… 11:00Istora MandiriJanine. 11:02JustjinYeah, exactly. Yeah, that's what I… that's the one I use. As well, right? But, yeah, I've been so busy. Yep. 11:18Diego L.L.Cool. Well, anyone, I mean, everyone should be running, in my opinion, a client themselves, so, I mean, to complete the whole blockchain experience and the decentralization and all that, and not depending on third parties. But, yeah, if… If any of you need some help on running any client, just ping me on Discord, or in Twitter, or anything, and I will do my best to help you. 11:45Lunar WardenI'm hoping one day… 11:48JustjinOop. 11:48Lunar WardenNext, like, 6… well, go ahead. Hello? 11:54CitrullinWe… Yeah, which one would you say, then, in a Kubernetes cluster, in terms of client diversity. How much should I install? 12:05Diego L.L.Which one would I go? Well, I will try to stay neutral on this, but, I will personally try Nethermind these days. 12:17CitrullinBecause the GATH is so strong on Classic. 12:22Diego L.L.It is, yes, but I think Netherland deserves, deserves a really… a good chance there, yeah. 12:31Istora MandiriYeah, I… But since the last call, I fully synced Nevermind with a full archive node. It took, like… around 500GB, I think, but… You don't need to use full archive. Pruned, it's probably closer to 100, I guess. And yeah, it synced perfectly fine, less than 2 days. Like… It's totally doable, and it provides a level of sovereignty. the… When you need it, you'll be glad you have it. 13:03Diego L.L.Yeah, I completely agree. And hopefully we'll have another option like this, like, more upstream… Aligned version of, client with, with, upstream Aligned with Co-Ethereum, I mean, with ETC support. I mean, probably, I don't know, when the GoEthereum team is releasing the next version, but as soon as they have it, I will publish. another version, so… so people could try this also. I made a test running these two versions, GoEthereum Classic and CoreGef. one aside the other, and I could say that, I mean, the performance is better. But of course, I mean, it will be less battle-tested than what is, Corgath nowadays, but we will get there eventually. 14:00Istora MandiriSorry if you already. 14:01Diego L.L.Jesus. 14:02Istora Mandiribefore Diego, but the… Where are the performance benefits coming from? If they're both based on… similar codebases? Or is… 14:12Diego L.L.They. 14:13Istora MandiriLike. 14:13Diego L.L.Yeah, but they changed quite a lot, since the last upstream version from, GoEthereum, from Gorge, to the current version of GoEthereum. So, like, for example. Now the… the default, Database's, schema is path-based, and that introduced, like, many different, like. like, I don't know, like, optimizations, around, memory footprint, and things like that. I don't know, something they… they have changed something into the… also the sync protocol. I don't know, I think they've made… maybe they are downloading… More, bodies, in parallel, or things like that, that made the scene way faster. With, GoEthereum Classic. But, once I have the… when… once we get this, the new release, I will publish the numbers. I will run again all these… analysis, and I will publish the numbers. 15:24Istora MandiriCool. 15:24Diego L.L.Hmm… 15:25Istora MandiriWas it Luna that had something? To add? 15:31Lunar WardenOh yeah, I was just gonna say, I don't have… like, I'm traveling around right now, but I'm hoping I'll have, like, at least, like, a small mining setup and a node running on my own. Eventually, eventually the next thing. I don't know, 6 months here, something like that. No, that's the plan, anyway. 15:49Istora MandiriAwesome. 15:49Diego L.L.Yeah, we will… it will be great to… to test one of these clients against, real mining. So, that would be awesome, if you could run off any of this. New clients. 16:04Istora MandiriAnd with the… when you're mining on ETC, like. Typically, you're pointing to a mining pool, right? And… And therefore, you're not really running the client locally, unless you're fully mining. 16:19Diego L.L.Yeah, solo mining, yeah. 16:21Istora MandiriFor full blocks, right? Yeah. 16:23Diego L.L.Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. 16:25Lunar WardenGotcha, gotcha. How much, how much, how much mining, like, hash power is there? Am I gonna be able to get anything if I'm solo mining? Or is it, to us? 16:35Diego L.L.Well, eventually. It's hard to say, but eventually you should. 16:38Lunar WardenRight. 16:41Istora MandiriIt depends how much equipment you have, I guess, and what your investment. upfront investment is gonna be. I mean, if you have, like, a decent number of ASICs, I think solar mining's realistic. But anything less than… a fairly decent-sized rig, then I think you probably just want to be part of a pool. If you want more reliable profitability. Yeah, would be my guess. 17:12Diego L.L.Yeah, well, now following with, with a client's topic, I've been also… I kept trying to run the, like, create, making a Vessel plugin for Ethereum Classic. For doing that, the first thing was to basically try to sync. And I found out a few problems with the current status of BESU. Those problems, are also happening in Ethereum, the regular Ethereum. So I move forward, and I fix… the two blockers that are found there. I submit the two pull requests, both of them are under review right now. Once those get, merged, hopefully, then I will move forward and I will send the PR with all the abstractions that, are needed into the Vesu Core to support, plugins, in the fashion of, how… what, ATC plugin, requires nowadays, because, I mean, you will have… you will need like, the ability to touch, consensus, and many things that nowadays the… the plugin abstractions are best… doesn't expose, so I would have to… to make those changes, but yeah, I've been running… the upstring of PESU, plus my fixes, plus these new abstractions, and, like, a proposed, plugin, and this is also having, like, really good performance. So, hopefully, I don't know, I will say in… In a month or two, we could have another… another play in there. 19:06Istora MandiriAwesome. 19:08Diego L.L.Yeah, and then in the more, infrastructure side, I also said, People request to save. For adding support for their, newest, or the latest, contract versions for the safe wallet, that we have this, catacomb. instance run by the Ethereum Classic Cooperative. So I send those… For requests, they merged just one, because the other one had a conflict, but once they merged the second one, and they make a new release, I will be able to… Deploy… well, yeah, to activate this new… version of the safe wallet. I'm running in a dev instance the new… the latest version of their interface, and hopefully we will have support for the… for this new version of the safe wallets quite soon. Boom. 20:14Istora MandiriAre you aware of the… the interface for SAFE, deployed by… the official SAFE project. Does that support ETC? 20:25Diego L.L.Currently, and with the registry update. 20:28Istora MandiriWill it support it? Okay. 20:31Diego L.L.No, I don't know, maybe. I really don't know. But, once they merge these PRs are… I mean, the installation is quite simple, so… but I don't know what, they, they support. Maybe. I mean, they are… they have in this new version. this multi-chain thing, so that's the new fancy thing that they added into this version, so maybe they have something there, but I really don't know. 20:59Istora MandiriYeah, I would assume that if they're having multiple trainers, then you gotta use them somehow, so that would be… 21:05Diego L.L.Yeah. 21:06Istora MandiriAdding quite a lot of value. 21:09Diego L.L.Yes, yes, but they will need to run indexers in the background, connected to a full node and all that, so I don't know if they are running data infrastructure that we are. 21:23Istora MandiriI see. I see. 21:26Diego L.L.So, yes. Also, some other interesting thing. So, while I was, doing some research on DeFi and all that. I checked, if it will be possible to deploy the Uniswap V3. On top of, Ethereum Classic. Then I realized that they were not using Create2, so, the addresses will be non-deterministic, or dependent on having the actual keys for the deployments, and matching that, that key with the known, the right knowns to To generate the same address. And then I discovered that someone got access to the original, deployment private keys, and they deployed fake contracts on the very same addresses that in Ethereum, they, they They generated contracts in the very same addresses. in Ethereum Classic, but, for draining the funds. So, we published, a thread with all this explanation in the X account of the Ethereum Classic cooperative, but, the public service advice here is just don't interact with those, with those, contracts on Ethereum Classic. 22:51Istora MandiriVery interesting. And this currently affects… I believe there's a couple of deployments already on ETC, right? Like, ETC swap. And… 23:01Diego L.L.Yes. 23:02Istora MandiriI, I, I mean, There's also my timing. 23:06Diego L.L.Yes, and also Hebe. Hebe Swap, I guess. 23:08Istora MandiriRight. 23:09Diego L.L.Heavy swap. 23:10Istora MandiriSo those, those two contracts are now basically… Should be avoided. 23:18Diego L.L.No, no, no, no, no, I mean, it is swap or HeavySwap are completely independent from these addresses. Those addresses that I meant were, like, the same address as in Ethereum. 23:32Istora MandiriOkay. 23:33Diego L.L.The only problem is that someone thinks that these very same addresses that runs the proper version of Uniswap in Ethereum are running the same version in Ethereum Classic. 23:45Istora MandiriI see. Did you… did you check the transaction history for that address on Ethereum Classic? Was there any… People getting… 23:54Diego L.L.Yeah, train. 23:55Istora MandiriYeah. 23:56Diego L.L.No, no, I didn't check. No, I didn't check. Okay. Hopefully, no. But, no, yeah, I didn't check. I think there were a few tests from the… We could say hacker. There were a few tests, if the exploit was working, and it was. But, yeah, hopefully no one got into this trap. 24:19Istora MandiriUnderstood So the existing ETC swap contracts are perfectly fine to use, it's just… Make sure you're using the right contract address. 24:29Diego L.L.Yes, exactly. Yeah, just don't get confused by the address. 24:34Istora MandiriCool. Which is what you should be doing anyway, probably. 24:38Diego L.L.Yep. Okay. Yeah, I think that's all on my side. 24:46Istora MandiriAlright. So, thank you for the updates. Good to see things are progressing, and We now, I guess, have some different pathways we could go down in terms of what we discuss on this call. There's, we could talk about Olympia, we could talk about some other future topics. But I wanted to first open the floor to the chat, see if there's anything in particular you guys wanted to… Talk about. 25:16Lunar WardenI feel like Olympia is the important topic we should discuss at least a little bit about, so… But that's, like, the most important thing, the most pressing. 25:29Istora MandiriOkay. Yeah, I basically agree. it seems like the Olympia authors are basically in a non-responsive mode, in terms of responding to, my questions and other people in the community's questions, and even their own Discord server. There's very little activity there. However, on… GitHub, there's a different story, and it seems the authors of Olympia are Very busy, and making lots of commits in the last two weeks since the last call. There's been, like, over… 400 commits? Probably not all created by a human manually, but there's been a lot of commits on… on the Olympia side. So I thought I… like… the opportunity exists for them to join the calls and have their side of the development of Olympia be discussed, but… I mean, this is an important thing that the community wants to hear about, so… I figure we should talk about what they've been working on. 26:37Lunar Wardencampaign. 26:38Istora MandiriOne of the… One of the key pieces is this Fukui client, which is the IOHK fork of Mantis. which, Cody Buns has been… primarily working on, but also with contributions from Chris Murpher, the other Author of Olympia. And… Yeah, so far, I think there's only one client that's been synced with Mainnet in Fukui, but based on the previous I guess. pull requests made on the Ethereum Classic website, and also the… the websites that I will talk about. It seems like this client is what they're… Planning to use, if they do go ahead with the Olympia. Hard fork, as they've advertised. And currently, this is basically somewhat untested client code. And… I struggled to see… The likelihood of everyone switching over to this new client and at the same time, use Olympia at the same time, so… I don't know if anyone's got any comments on. 27:44Lunar Wardenthis book. I mean, if they want to fork, and start their own chain with their own, rules, like, it's fine. They… we wish them all the best. We hope they succeed unironically. But it's just the… like, we, we can't do anything, we can't do anything to, if they, if they want to leave, run their own, you know, run their own computers how they want. But we should also, we should also figure out, if that happens. So, like… how exactly, because they're going to keep the same chain ID, like, how exactly does this work on the RPC level? Like, who are the RPCs going to decide with? How do the exchanges decide these things? We should just, like… like… we should just sort of, like, take note at every level of the stack, like, what, what exactly happens. Maybe we should… maybe we should… Does anyone… does anyone have… have any knowledge on that? So, what exactly goes on? Assuming the… assuming the worst case scenario. 28:47Istora MandiriThe risk sounding like an LLM, you've hit the nail on the head there, and basically the… The real question is which… Side of the fork, that the main Ecosystem participants are going to be following. Miners are probably the most important one, because they determine the longest chain, and if they're sharing the same, same chain ID, then… until there are Olympia-specific… well, actually, that will happen basically immediately if the Olympia code is in, because the The logic will change, so… If they, if they have substantial mining, then… this will… Allow the changes exist… to continue, basically. But that mining is likely to be unprofitable, unless they also get Other parts of the ecosystem that provide that value, so… I'm trying, I'm trying to think, like… Basically, they need the exchanges, they need the miners. And there's not many dApps or apps at the moment, so… That's kind of… less relevant. But yeah, exchanges and miners. And if there are some major mining pools that come out against Olympia. Then, that massively reduces the likelihood of A chain split happening, because it will make it clear that a chain split is Not gonna be the majority chain. As far as I can tell. 30:28Lunar WardenWhat about the RPCs? How do they decide if both… if both chains have the same chain ID? How do RPCs decide? It's just done on… 30:38Istora MandiriYeah, so it's up to them, basically. If they stick on the software. stick on, Cool Gear, which… is advisable. then nothing will change, and we'll stay on non-Olympia. The RPC providers themselves will need to somehow advertise which version of the chain They're following? It's likely that Olympia will set up their own RPC service, like rpc.ethroneclassic.com or something. That will be running their version of the chain, and then people will need to opt-in to that to run Olympia. the… like, this scenario of having the same chain ID is really… ill thought through, if that is something that the Olympia authors want to do, because… It will cause a lot of chaos and potential I guess potential financial loss, and maybe even, I don't know, Let's not go there, but… It could cause major problems for Holders, for exchanges, for miners, so… I think, like, the current best-case scenario is that we just make enough noise and convince enough exchanges and miners over time to come out. And… and be against this thing, because as… We'll go into some of the developments as we progress, but… It seems like it's going ahead, from… from the two… Olympia Author's perspective. And if it is going ahead, that means that they are okay with a chain split, so… That is new information that needs to be shared with all participants in order to Make them aware of. Things that they might need to prepare for. Including replay attacks. So, shall we go through some of these other updates? Did, Don't know if there's anyone on the call that has any thoughts about, before we move on from Fukui, like, the feasibility and the likelihood that there'll be enough people switching over to this new, somewhat experimental client, just to support Olympia, which is also experimental. And I just don't see… Yeah. 32:59CitrullinI can't imagine that, that this is in any way an interest in Accenture's, like. Pete, like, what is the… like, you cannot pull this off. The chaos… any exchange, any… reasonably professional, legit, serious exchange is going to say, ETC is not large enough to even worry about this, we're just going to delist them. It's as simple as that. So… I don't know if this whole ghosting is really a power move, and more of, we cannot deal with this right now, and we would like… if you're on Classic, to change, to have a sustainable treasury to have mechanisms, but they didn't have any idea how else to do it. Otherwise, I cannot really explain. Why people could behave this way. And I pulled… 33:59Istora MandiriYou bring up a really good point. 34:02CitrullinYeah, I posted a variant with… I discussed with a couple of people in the Discord as well, with doing this on based rollups instead, and then having a balanced dynamic between miners contributing to it, the Dow living on a based roll-up, and they could cut them any day off, but the major activity happened on the Dow. Like, it's an interesting… just to… just to think about this dynamic, maybe that's where you can find a compromise in terms of L1 is clean and simple, as it should be, and stable. The fancy stuff they can do on their base roll-up with the… Treasury and everything. And if the miners think the Dow is bullshit, you just cut the funding. Something along those lines. Yeah, but you're right, that they have to be willing to… 34:58Istora MandiriHow would minus… 34:59CitrullinRight? 34:59Istora MandiriHow do miners vote in that system? Right, there's a number of problems so far. One… the major one is there's no discussion, which is annoying, and I wish they would engage in that. Secondly, like you did mention. An important point about, like, If we… if they're going ahead with this, and they're creating this… like, not FOMO, FUD, F-U-D, fear of… fear, uncertainty, and Drama in Ethereum Classic, then. like, it risks exchanges just saying, fuck it. These guys, they don't know what they're doing. This whole chain has been, like. annoying over the years, and let's just cut it off and not bother with it. Which would be a massive Shame. And this is the problem when you go ahead with things without getting consensus. Because, yeah, it looks bad from the outside. Yes, you… 35:51CitrullinFrom my favorable… from my favorable interpretation here, it's like. like, from… from also what I see, like, an industrialized perspective, in a way. Like, just to give you… positive look on their perspective. The one guy works at Accenture, and the other guy is somehow involved, right? So. In their mind, it could be that they're currently seeing, and also Grayscale, Ethereum failing massively on the social level, that they have managed to become this huge project, and we have stablecoin liquidity, etc, but now they're getting captured by Deutsche Bank, JP Morgan, whoever is involved, never mind, etc, and whatever. And they want to hatch their bets against something that is extremely neutral, codeist law, etc, because they would like to have to some system, some template they can recommend their customers to move on in this whole blockchain world. That's… that's a perspective to… to have here. 37:01Lunar WardenNo, I think it's more simple. If you read, like, the early Discord messages, it's like, it is specifically about, like, lack of funding or lack of sustainable funding. So, I think, I think your first, I think your first, idea is probably closer to the truth. And… 37:19Istora MandiriI don't think that, like, Cody's employment at Accenture is actually really informing his decisions here, like, I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt, and… Like, I think he wants to solve problems, truly. And I think… if Olympia went off, and everyone was on board, then maybe it would be a solution, but… Everyone's not on board, so unfortunately… I don't think that's gonna work. I'm sorry. 37:49Lunar WardenAnd let me say, since this is a more, like, philosophical discussion… There's this sort of principle. I've heard… I've heard it discussed a few times. Some people say something like, in order for… in order for the chain to be changed, like, it has to be unanimous consent. But I don't think that's a good principle to run it. If you want to say, like, on a philosophical, theological level. Or even just, like, on a bare bones. Let me not get too philosophical, but just on a bare-bones level, if you say the community will get larger over time, then saying unanimous consent is impossible. Just, just on, just on a. 38:37Istora MandiriThe terminology that, the terminology that Donald used is not unanimous, but rough consensus. So, that definition is a little bit vague, but… 38:48Lunar WardenOkay. As far as I understand. 38:50Istora MandiriIt's like, there's… there's… There's enough… there's enough support where if the dissenting parties disagree. it doesn't really prevent things from moving forward. Like, maybe they're… That's more… like, if it was literally 100% unanimity, then nothing would ever happen, because… Like, you could easily have pseudo-anonymous identities that are just, like, stopping things happening. 39:16Lunar WardenRight, right, right. 39:17Istora MandiriWhen there's, like, significant and real pushback, then you don't have rough consensus, basically. 39:25Lunar WardenRight. And we should. Like, the thing is, any chain… if you have, like, some proposed upgrade. You could always say something like, oh, the… we… we, the guys that decide… we, the chain that decides not to… not to accept this proposed upgrade, is the real ETC, and… and that's, like, a credible claim to being the real ETC, because they… because they didn't go… like, they had all of… all of… they had all of Ethereum except this one contentious upgrade or whatever. No matter… no matter what the… what the details of the upgrade are. And so that's why I'm saying we should, before… before there's… Before this sort of… we should think carefully about how exactly we're going to manage the upgrades, how many more hard forks we should do. I think Don was of the opinion that ETC was basically done at the core protocol level. And so this is, like, we sh… we should think, we should think carefully about how exactly are we going to make, like, the next, if there's going to be a next hard fork, I guess there is, but how many more hard forks are there going to be? Do we need that many? And just sort of… Yeah, I just… let me just put that out there, I don't know. 40:50Istora MandiriYep, I, I think… This ossification question is definitely something that deserves a lot more focus. And it does solve a lot of problems, right? It solves a lot of the political problems, so… It does… it also kind of… 41:05Lunar WardenIt's the main, like, thought experiment. Like, at any hard fork, any sort of party could say, you know, no, actually, we're not going to… we're going to implement all the forks that were uncontruous up until now. except this new one, and then they have a legitimate claim, no matter how small that group is, they have a legitimate claim to being, like, the original ETC or whatever. And so that… that's something that, that sort of should be considered. How… . 41:35Istora MandiriYeah. 41:36Lunar WardenAnd so that's why we should be, you know, try to stick to the immutability, try to figure out… Like, we're basically… the EVM standard is basically complete, almost complete. We should figure out how exactly, once… once we get, like… I think once people actually start using, like, real DeFi on ETC or something, or maybe, maybe in, like, limited form. We should see, like, those… I assume everything will be basically the same as regular ETH, everything will check out. And so, is there really a need to upgrade it further than that? So… What'd you guys think? 42:18Istora MandiriYeah, I think eventually, I hope, we get there, and then we don't have to have any of these debates anymore, we can focus on layers above. There's probably always gonna be some… Maintenance that's required. But, yeah, I think… Like, there's definitely gonna be upgrades in the next few years, at least, so… We can… we can think about the future, but, this… 42:48Lunar WardenWell. 42:48Istora MandiriOlympia. 42:49Lunar WardenWhat specifically, what's… like, sure, maybe a couple more hard forks, but, like, what specifically in the future? Because I'm saying I can't really think of anything in the future, other than, you know, sort of, like, I don't know, maybe there's, like, a quantum scare or something like that, some sort of crazy, sort of. Oh, sort of out-there thing. 43:10Diego L.L.Well, there are, like, use cases that, the regular Ethereum are pursuing, like, like L2s, for example. So they put a lot of effort on scalability solutions, and those were changes, changes on the protocol. So, yeah, they're… 43:30Lunar WardenOur advantage is we don't need that. We already have, like, the best L2 scaling solution, right? If you need some, like, shit chain that just does, like, something quickly, you can move to ETH. If you want, like, a store of value that you know you can trust will never change on you, you use ETC. And so, like, anything that Ethereum does to scale, like, we don't even need to copy it, we can just, like, oh, let them use ETH, because, like I said, the gas fees on there are zero. You don't have to buy any ETH to use ETH. And so we can just… let's let them do all the scaling, hard work, whatever. We have a chain that never changes, you can use smart contracts on it, you can try. 44:09CitrullinYeah, well… 44:10Lunar WardenTrain. 44:11CitrullinI would like to have a global… a global pipe, a global computer, or however you want to call it, that can basically run anywhere in the world, and if it's, like, some shitty bank in the Sahara, in Africa, I still want to engage with them and do… share them… share my industrial output with them, be able for them to pay me, right? But I still also want to be able to have my sensor data, et cetera, with zero knowledge proof, in order to be audible eventually, so… So why not have a slow. commodity system that can run on anything, really, and then attach base roll-ups to it, and then, of course, you can cast it as far as you want, right? You can have an L2, an L3 on top of it. maybe even… maybe the L3 is even a lock tree optimization, and you have parts of the Merkle tree for sensors, they only sign part… whatever, right? Why not going this route? Like, why are you… 45:24Lunar WardenWhat's name, specifically? 45:25CitrullinThere are. 45:26Lunar Wardenthat scaling… what I'm saying specifically is that scaling, or transactions per second, or growth is not a concern for ETC. It doesn't affect the fundamental value of ETC. The fundamental value of ETC comes from it not changing. Comes from… I can trust when I store my wealth in ETC, it will go up over time. There's no sort of, like, social consensus that determines changes to the protocols that will damage it in some way or some other. And so, this is what gives… this is what gives the unit, ETC, value. It's not… it's not the transactions per second, because if I want transactions per second, you know… 46:07Citrullinwhat if this scarcity mindset is what… what brings down Ethereum as a whole, and also Ethereum Classic? Like, what if… if it would be more sustainable for the system to become a… Non-scare, not… non… sound money system. 46:29Istora MandiriI think that debate has already happened, and basically. As encoded in our, like, previous hard forks, like… there is a fixed monetary supply. We can't really undo that. Even if we wanted to, I don't want to. I think it's. 46:44Lunar WardenIt's a mechanics that emulates Bitcoin. It's because, you know, you want the token to go up. Like, there's plenty of schemes where you can have, like, a socialist, or… that's like a… you can have different, like, monetary schedules, or monetary supplies. But it's just in this particular one, like, you don't want to change, you want to trust. Like, I want to trust, like, 10 years from now. Sort of the economics of it will be the same. Which is something I can't. 47:14Istora MandiriAgreed. 47:14Lunar WardenEthereum, if I go… if I wait 10 years for ETH. you know, maybe they'll upgrade the scaling, maybe they'll upgrade the transaction per second, but who knows, you know, they'll… maybe they add censorship to the protocol level, or maybe they… 47:29CitrullinBut that's… you're… this… what you said about the terms, the economic terms are the same, that's not true, because the price stability is not given. In the opposite. When the price goes up of a thing, ETC, whatever. the price stability goes down, so I get more for my. 47:51Istora MandiriThe… the… the economic side… A s… Let me try and arrange this thought correctly. So there's… there are objective things that we can embed into the protocol. That are fixed and don't change, such as the supply curve. And there are external things that can… Fluctuate with world politics, or whatever. The protocol is never going to be able to control those external things, but what it can do is Like, have a well-specced protocol that's relatively simple, kind of like Bitcoin, that self-regulates in a way. And yes, the price of ETC will change, that's ideally what's going to happen. 48:31CitrullinBut, but… 48:32Istora MandiriIf we change. 48:33Citrullin5? 48:33Istora MandiriLet me… can I, can I finish the thing? If we try to inject any subjectivity into the protocol, then it fundamentally breaks. all the other assumptions about the protocol, because where do you get that source of truth? Who gets to decide what the subjectivity is? So by having this solidified, ossified, objective protocol, we sidestep a huge array of problems that are introduced by subjective decision making. And that's what makes it special, I think. 49:04CitrullinThe problem is just… the problem. 49:08Lunar WardenI… 49:09Citrullinlaid out now is from… from coming from the Fisher equation now, you… scarcity… it becomes more scarce and scarce and scarce, and with it, the velocity goes down, aka, the network is dead at this point, which is a problem, right? So… 49:28Lunar WardenWhere do you get that source of truth? The velocity in BTC goes down, but BTC is still valuable. 49:40Citrullinwhat I was saying is the… with the price of either ETC or ETH, it doesn't even matter. With the price going up, the activity in the network goes down. It's… it's a natural reaction to people. keeping huddling… 49:59Istora MandiriWent. 50:00CitrullinThat… 50:00Istora MandiriIn… where do you get the source of truth to decide who, like. How much is inflated, and who gets the money. 50:08CitrullinThose are good questions to ask, and I'm definitely on your side, that's hard to answer, and that's something… the challenge probably at hand. I'm just saying the problem is, like. if you make this thing scarce, people huddle, and I mean, we see this all over the place, but with it, people don't use it, and with not using it, the network Security goes down over time, and then the whole thing collapses in itself, eventually, if we keep continuing this path. 50:41Istora MandiriMaybe, but we have to be sure that the cure is not worse than the disease, right? And that's the whole argument, in my opinion, against Olympia, because it is injecting this subjective element to the core protocol. 50:51CitrullinOh, 100%, 100%. But it shouldn't run on L1 in the first place. I don't think that's the place to be. Agreed, agreed. 50:59Lunar WardenLet me say, let me, let me reiterate, sort of, like, what is… what is the difference between ETH and ETC? So the only, you know, ETH has more funding, more money, more… more transactions per second. Basically, everything, everything ETH… everything ETC has, ET… ETH has better, but the one thing, the one thing we have is actual finality. a legitimate transaction finality. I can trust If I want to hold my assets for 10 years in ETH, That's, that's a little bit skeptical. They could change, they could change the protocol on me. They could… seeing the way the ETH community is going, I imagine they're gonna start censoring stuff within a few years. Maybe that's. 51:47CitrullinThey're already doing it. 51:48Lunar Wardenempty. I, I can… 51:49Citrullintell you, I, I, I… 51:50Lunar WardenIn some ways, they're already doing it. In some ways, they're already doing it. This is what led me, actually, to move to the UTC community. And so… 51:59Istora MandiriThey're already doing the OFAC compliance in terms of the mining. 52:04Lunar WardenThere's… I can… I can see a bunch of other stuff there. It's… it gets dark there. It gets dark, man. It gets dark. But basically, if I want something like a store of value that I can trust. It's… for me, it's either BTC or ETC, and ETC is the only one that actually has, like, that additional smart contract layer, so if people want to actually build, like, long-term contracts that they can trust. for a longer period of time, then actually, I think ETC is the only option. And so that's what… I think long-term, that's what actually makes us more valuable than ETH. I do expect… I do expect, you know, us to flip ETH eventually. But that's. 52:45Istora MandiriI agree, and I think that the… like, we can definitely maintain… like, it's a core… like, mission, as far as I'm concerned, for ETC, to maintain that property. Particularly with regards to the, things that have been promised in the past, and continuing to deliver that. Like, the… continuity. I guess is the key word there. And… continuing to deliver that over a very long time period is the value proposition, and I don't think we'll get rid of that. Ever, ideally. If there needs to be upgrades that actually maintain the continuity, then that's where the protocol might change, but it's always done in the ambition of maintaining continuity. So… 53:33CitrullinThat's kind of the conflict right now, isn't it? Like, you need some kind of sustainable funding, some kind of organization, but it has to… 53:42Lunar WardenNo, you don't… 53:43Citrullinor not. 53:44Lunar WardenBTC does not have any sustainable funding or organization. It will be valuable on its own, just, we just have to be patient. It's like, It's like we're waiting around. 54:01Istora MandiriOr you can look at many chains that have quote-unquote sustainable foundations or treasuries, and, like, it's just misallocated. It's just really badly allocated. 54:10Lunar WardenAnd the beauty of the… 54:12CitrullinI'm 100%… 54:13Lunar WardenI agree with you. 54:15Istora MandiriThe free… the free market of, like. there's… there's some company that wants to build something on top of ETC and wants to fund, like. Maintenance for the… the… the core chain, or, like, building things. It's in their interest to make sure that ETC survives, basically. And because they are… Spending their own money instead of someone else's, or minor tax. They have a massive incentive to ensure it's been spent well. Whereas if you have a DAO that's just… like, famously always badly managed, especially with voting, and maybe even taken over very easily by a whale that just votes all their tokens to themselves, then, like, that's clearly a worse-case scenario than having just a bit… a Bitcoin style. like, buy and contribute strategy that has worked for that. And because Ethereum Classic has the same kind of Core philosophy is Bitcoin. It seems obvious to me that that is also the best way of aligning ETC. 55:14CitrullinBut… but that… that begs the question to ask if… Bitcoin really worked out in a sustainable development way, in terms they haven't really advanced much, and the times they tried to do L2s, and they tried to add smart contract type of features, and they tried the Lightning network, which ended up in a highly centralized network, so… they weren't really successful here either. I'm not saying that the other DAOs, oh my god, there has been… there's a lot of bullshit going on either way, but… Maybe there's something in between, some kind of organized effort, but you still need to find a way to not fall into the traps you mentioned. Meanwhile, you also don't want to be Bitcoin and being stuck in the past forever, and not move on with. 56:12Istora MandiriWell, I… 56:12Citrullinrequired. 56:13Istora Mandirichallenge you on that. I'll challenge you on that, because recently Bitcoin has… there's always new things happening in Bitcoin, just not on the… necessarily the protocol level. Like, you have all this… Zero layer bolts. I guess even Rootstock, and Liquid, and Lightning, and all these things, like… they're not affecting L1, really. They're building on top of it. Maybe there's additional features that can be piecemeal added if they're really big wins. But why cannot the innovation happen outside the protocol layer, and work with the tools that exist, that are yet to be utilized fully, and I see that as, like, a way better incentive-aligned path to advancement. And we've had this debate many times in the past, like, having this layer-based approach. A, solves the political problem, because you don't need to change stuff, and B, allows people to experiment in safety in a kind of sandbox without messing with the core train. 57:09CitrullinYeah, but that's also not completely true, because you're putting the complexity of consensus, basically, on a different layer, and now you have different actors, you have an L1, and you have an L2, and now you have to look how you balance those each other out, because, hey, at any point, the L2 could also just split off into another. And if that's the whole economic system, the whole L1 dies up. Like, you're… at the end of the day, you still should have some kind of bigger architectural view, and have some kind of… organization, entity, whatever you want to call it, place, maybe, where people can organize and come together. Like, we'll always. 57:56Istora MandiriOkay, I mean, this… Bitcoin has its own developer forums, we have this, like, we have emergent groups of people collaborating in open source, and in Ethereum Classic. Like, there's no top-down. Decision making here. 58:12Lunar WardenAs soon as you make something official, as soon as you make, like, an official organization or an official thing, then it's no longer neutral. Like, that's… that's the fundamental thing. People only… 58:24CitrullinYeah, but… 58:24Lunar WardenI only value Bitcoin so much because it's, like, neutral to some extent, to, like, to a pretty large extent. And ETC will only be valued as long as it is neutral. As soon as you have, like, an official organization doing something or something else, or a privileged organization in some way or another, it ceases becoming neutral. 58:46CitrullinBut isn't, isn't… 58:46Istora MandiriSpeaking of which… Yeah, as much as I would love to continue this debate, there is some… there's… I just wanted to get into some of the other things that have been happening in the Olympia development that are very related to what we're talking about. So, with this, so, Fukui is one of the main things, but we… There's also been… there are four websites that are being maintained and deployed right now, by the Olympia project, I guess. So we have EthereumclassicDAO.org, we have Olympiadow.org, we have Olympiatreasury.org, and we have Ethereum Classic.com. In the last two weeks, there's been… Around 400 commits on… Maybe 300 commits on these projects. And you can check these out, but these seem to be giving us a preview of where Ethereum Classic is going to be going in the eyes of the Olympia authors, and I just wanted to Highlight a couple of quotes from these websites that are currently deployed. So when I throw in classicDAO.org, Which is the governance model. It's a three-tier governance model, refining messaging around The Dow's relationship with ETC It frames the co-op as a temporary placeholder whose role is being superseded by the Dow LLC that's introduced by Olympia. And on the Ethereum ClassicDAO.org website, it says, referring to the ClassicDAO LLC, that every client decision, network upgrade, and emergency response has been coordinated through us. Which I don't know where they're getting from, but that's what's published on their website. We have Olympiadow.org, which is a marketing site for the Olympia upgrade. And they say Olympia is targeted for mainnet activation before 2027. So that would mean within the next… 6 to 8 months. We have olympiatrasury.org that says that, Olympia is in the final testing on the Mordor testnet. I don't know if anyone has been… seeing any of those updates on the Ward or testnet? It'd be good to see. What that looks like. And we have Ethereumclassic.com, which is a seemingly parallel landing site to the Ethereumclassic.org. And on that website, it says. Olympia is Ethereum Classic's most significant protocol upgrade. Three changes arrive in a single activation. For Saka EVM alignment, EIP1559, And a protocol-managed treasury. So that's on Ethereumclassy.com. So, all these websites are basically making it clear that The plan is, before the end of this year, to have Olympia on mainnet. And basically replacing the existing clients with this Fukui. client that's currently in active development. So… I think this… Kind of brings to the front the… Urgency, shall I say. In terms of how the community responds to this. this effort by the Olympia authors, because these… like, over 400 commits in the last 2 weeks. They're serious about this, and they're pushing it. And they're making claims that, frankly, are just not true, so… Just once it… 1:02:15Lunar Wardenthis today. 1:02:15Istora Mandiriattention. 1:02:18Lunar WardenYeah, I will say, if they're saying January 1 next year, then it actually doesn't seem very urgent. Maybe it's sooner, maybe it's more urgent? But, Look, there's nothing we can do if they're determined to, you know, run code on their own computers. We wish them the best. We sincerely hope that, you know, they achieve everything they set out to do. 1:02:44Istora MandiriYeah, but I think you're missing the, like, there's serious damage that can be done here. 1:02:48Lunar WardenWe should minimize the damage in terms of, you know, if it means that exchanges are iffy or something, we should just… we should let them know. If it means that miners are iffy, we should say, hey, you know, this is… we think this is the correct ETC, but they're saying this, you know, what do you think. 1:03:06Istora MandiriAnd what happens. 1:03:06Lunar WardenI should just… 1:03:07Istora MandiriWhat happens if the exchanges delist ETC? What if, like, all the major exchanges say, fuck this? 1:03:11Lunar WardenThat's not the end of the world. I'm telling you, one of the reasons why I'm bullish is because it's delisted everyone. It's like, wow, no one… It's like… I'm trying… I'm trying to get this listed on an exchange. So, like, that's… it's… it's… it's not, it's not a problem, like, I'll… I'll figure it out, I'll figure that out. We should… we should just, like, let the exchanges, like, be aware, like, hey, this… this… this is happening. And let's also try and figure out, like, who are their supporters, like, will they do this only with two people, with two computers? So maybe, maybe speak to them, maybe, you know, just… let's be nice. If they want to part ways, like, you know, we wish them the best. Maybe, in case they are listening to this, I'll say, like, ETC, it only has, like, you only get develop… like, if your goal is funding for developers, that's contingent on legitimacy for the ETC chain. And so if you're just forking like this. then, then it's sort of hard to get that legitimacy. If you want to say, like, if you want to say no more forking to make a broader, like, coalition of developers and other and other sort of elements of the ecosystem that are… it's sort of like a coup or a revolution on the ETC blockchain. If you say, we have this broad enough coalition of developers and miners. and who knows, new entrants to the system. Then, then it sort of makes sense. Then maybe, maybe it's like a… Then, then maybe that has, I don't know if that has, like, real potential, like, maybe in 50 years, there'll be, like, a socialist revolution. And all the people who didn't have a chance to buy Bitcoin. They fork the main chain, and somehow this gets, like, legitimacy. But this is, like, a crazy, crazy sort of crackpot theory. Right now, right now, it's an optimistic. 1:04:59Istora Mandiriwhich then… Which… which… 1:05:03Lunar WardenWhich project is that? 1:05:05Istora Mandiriand Ethereum Classic. 1:05:07Lunar WardenWell, yeah, you'd say… this is like, you know, this is the debate between, like, Judaism and Christianity, right? There's, like, the old strict Jewish law, which many claim that, like, Jesus does not fulfill, and Jesus says, like, no, he fulfills, like, the more deeper law, or something like this. I'd say, you know, you could say. 1:05:27Istora MandiriJudaism doesn't have. 1:05:28Lunar Wardenlike, Judaism. What's that? 1:05:30Istora MandiriChristianity.com, right? The question is, like, who gets the branding? Which chain is Ethereum Classic? Which changes? 1:05:38Lunar WardenAnd each participant has to decide that for themselves, you know? I'd say. 1:05:44Istora MandiriThank you. 1:05:44Lunar Wardenthis specific Olympia upgrade, you know? It's like, no, this does not seem legitimate. This just seems like a hostile takeover. And so we have to just inform people that, like, the exchanges or whatever, like, hey, this… this is the contention, like, you know, you can… you can decide to… to list whatever you want, you can decide to mine whatever chain you want, just… just be aware. that this may, may or may not… But you see… 1:06:07Citrullinthe reality here, right? Like, they will say. You're in no position, we don't care, we just delist you, and that's it. Everyone gets their tokens cashed out, and they will not look back ever again. Why should they? 1:06:26Lunar WardenThat's fine, we're not, we're not begging for exchange with things, like, the price will go up, you know, it's like… It's fine, it's fine, like, you know, the exchanges, you know, they're not, they don't ask to list, like, BTC, they just list BTC, and it'll be the same for us. Like, the price is, like, temporarily down. But I firmly believe, like, it'll go back up. They won't have to… they won't have to ask to list us, you know? 1:06:49Istora Mandirithe same argument could be said about mining, right? And, like, if… let's assume… the… there's no pushback to Olympia. They… use the Ethereum Classic brand. And it becomes… Like, are you okay with that being the main chain, basically? 1:07:10Lunar WardenWhat's his main chain? Everyone has to decide what the main chain is. 1:07:14Istora MandiriThe one with the most hash rate. 1:07:17Lunar WardenLike, everyone has to decide for themselves, but I firmly believe, like, they wouldn't, you know? Like, you just let the miners decide for themselves. 1:07:26Istora Mandiriwe… we can't… this is the thing, right? It's an information war, essentially. And if there's no pushback, then the miners don't actually know. 1:07:34Lunar WardenIt's not… it's not really a war, like, there's no… there's no war against the truth. You're… you're approaching it like a war, and I'm just like, dude, it's like, it's so obvious, like… like, there's no… Maybe I'm, like, more like… like, if you're approaching this as a war, I think you have the wrong idea. 1:07:50Istora MandiriI said it's an information war, which is Different from a real war, but it's… it's an. 1:07:54Lunar WardenIt's, 1:07:56Istora MandiriIt's, It's a messaging thing, and had it not been for the pushback from myself and other community members, then… Olympia would be happening. And the regular… the real Ethereum Classic would not exist, so… having this… approach… And convincing people, and… getting the message out there. It's not a… like… some kind of… 1:08:23Lunar WardenIt's not done. 1:08:24Istora Mandiriaggressive thing. 1:08:25Lunar WardenHe's like… 1:08:26Istora MandiriIt's about… it's about education, and. 1:08:28Lunar WardenWe can't just… 1:08:29Istora MandiriWe can't just say, oh, the miners will decide themselves, I think, because the miners are not really in a position to understand what's happening. And unless someone tells them, they're just gonna go with the flow of whoever has the most propaganda. And you can see through these four websites that this is the intention. Like, they're… they're making claims that this is what's gonna happen, and… That's why it needs to. 1:08:52CitrullinDude, also… 1:08:52Istora MandiriBecause… 1:08:53Citrullinyou also have to see that it may be in their interest to push for this themselves, because a DAO means development, it means more companies or people on the chain, more activity, more… reward at the end of the day. So, they may be inclined to just say… on the surface, to just say, this is actually quite attractive. 1:09:21Istora MandiriWho's them? Sorry. 1:09:24CitrullinLike, miners who just upgrade, who just run those… For fun, in their basement. Who don't… who don't look too much in the… in the fights, what is going on in the details. 1:09:38Istora MandiriRight, right. 1:09:39CitrullinOn the surface, this looks kind of interesting enough, right? The Dow, yeah, they fail, but maybe they get this right, and maybe they argue in a certain way that it sounds fine. And then you're girlfriend. 1:09:55Istora MandiriYeah, which is why, like, it's important that I mean, if you want to use the… the, the biblical references, then, like, spreading the message is important. Like, the more people that are aware of the Here. 1:10:08Lunar Wardenclosely. 1:10:09Istora MandiriIt's… it's like… We can't just… like… rest on our morals, and allow it to happen. We can't just… We can't just be, like, giving up, basically. On, on the, the original… 1:10:25Lunar WardenNo, I'm not saying leave enough. I'm surprised, like, let's, let's, let's, like, sort of a concrete question I have is what makes them think this is even feasible? Like, who exactly… Do we know anyone other than, Other than, you know, the few of them that are gonna run this. this Olympia… Chainlink. 1:10:48Istora MandiriI do not. But they have the bullhorn of… 1:10:53Lunar WardenRight. Some… 1:10:55Istora MandiriSome outlets. And some Twitter handles, so… there's a feasibility. 1:11:01Lunar WardenThere's a bit of SEO, there's a bit of a bit of an SEO. Yeah. So… Look… 1:11:08Istora MandiriThe issue now is that… yeah, so go ahead. 1:11:12Lunar WardenI mean, I would like them to rejoin. Maybe if the token pumps, they'll rejoin the community, maybe that'll happen. If the token pumps before January 1st, they'll rejoin. Maybe not. But if they want to… if they want to do their own thing, like, we can't do anything, we can just say, like, hey, pay attention, pay attention. It's sort of like, it's sort of like, if you have, like, impersonators, like, sort of scamming you on Twitter, if you're, like, running a company and, like, there's impersonators, you can just say, like, hey, maybe, you know, you don't call them that. You can say, hey, there's these guys that run a similar name thing, but we're different. So, I don't know, maybe… 1:11:49Istora MandiriYeah. 1:11:50Lunar WardenI feel like… 1:11:50Istora MandiriIt's also… 1:11:51Lunar Wardenproblematic. The, like… Maybe I'm being too bad. Yeah, yeah. 1:11:57Istora MandiriThere is… there is no… there is no official ETC anything, so it's, like, perfectly within their right to claim. that… That version of Ethereum Classic is the future. Like, and they would have equal rights to claim that? Had it not been for the, like, discussion and debates that are happening, and… Now that there is pushback? That, thankfully, exists and is documented on the nolympia.dev. Thing, like, knowing that this will cause a schism. And a train split. There then becomes the question of, like, which one becomes known as a theme classic, and what does the other one… what happens to that? So… It's… It's gonna be, like, a really difficult thing to work our way through if they continue pushing it. And I don't think they. 1:12:45CitrullinCan't you escalate the communication channel and try to get in contact over XCenture, or somehow, I don't know, to just say, hey, we're open here, we see your concerns, and we may be able to address this in a different way, and without going this way? 1:13:03Lunar WardenI… 1:13:04Citrullinaggressive. 1:13:04Lunar WardenI feel like we've been quite open, like, we can let them do their own thing. And, and we're, we're always, we're always here, we're always happy to, happy to chat with them. There's nothing we can do. If they want to call… if they want to go around saying we're ETC, there's nothing we can do. We just inform people that, no, no, actually, we're the ETC. 1:13:26CitrullinBut, I mean, there must be a reason why they… they felt like… They're not met, their concerns. with whatever they're trying to do here with the Dow, etc. Like, right? You're not suddenly starting a war out of nothing. There must be some kind of… 1:13:48Lunar WardenI think you're right, it is the funding thing. I think, I think it is the… I think it is the funding thing. Boom. So, I think you're completely… That's a great, like… 1:13:59Istora MandiriWe can talk about funding. Like, this is an important part of 1559 that most people don't get, and that is… The amount of funding that Olympia will generate, at least until Ethereum reaches block saturation, which requires a 90… sorry, a 50X, In the number of transactions. is zero. 1:14:21Lunar WardenThe way that the 1559… The broader point, and we should be honest about this, is if we're talking about, like, strict protocol-level funding, it's… it's, like, limited, like, it's not that necessary. Like, if we're talking about just, like, directly at the… at the protocol level. you know, at higher levels… Yeah, yeah, yeah, but… On the contract side, on the client side, it may be necessary. But it's just… That's what I can't. 1:14:46CitrullinHmm. what kind of… what I can imagine is, because the one guy is coming from Accenture, that they wish ETC to be this aggressively neutral. chain that… that ETC never managed… ETH never managed to become, right? And now they're seeing this… this world moving on, and having all these other chains, all these, especially with Ethereum, this… this quick chain. But it doesn't have the attributes you need as an industry. And now they're pushing, trying to push ETC forcefully do to become that, and have some kind of mechanisms in place, that once it becomes so successful, and it has all this, block reward, that it can fund itself, and have these mechanisms in place. 1:15:41Istora MandiriThe thing… 1:15:41CitrullinThat's how I incorporate this from… 1:15:44Istora MandiriOnce it's successful, the problem is solved. Do you see the… there's, like, a chicken and egg problem, where… 1:15:50CitrullinWe see it right now with Ethereum. If you haven't placed those mechanisms and haven't thought about those mechanisms before, you end up with an Ethereum fleduction, with a mandatory. 1:16:04Istora MandiriNo. 1:16:04CitrullinTo force them to… 1:16:06Istora MandiriThere's no… there's no Ethereum Foundation in… when… when Ethereum Classic is successful, when it reaches block saturation, that's a good metric for it, and what would-be base fees, would be going into a treasury in Olympia. then it will be in a situation where Bitcoin is now, where the price is up, there's plenty of funding going around, and everyone's incentivized to contribute to the chain. And Olympia is saying that we need funding to get to that state, but Olympia itself will not be able to provide funding for that. 1:16:38Citrullinnot reality, right? It's just speculation, it's just piss and shit in the can. It's not like the chain itself, the technology is advancing, it's just… the piss and shit in the can is getting more hype, and fancier and restaking, and all these kind of instruments, but it's not… the core technology is not advancing. So they would, like… that's how I read this, like. They would like to have some kind of mechanism in place that self-sufficiently can sustain… can sustainably operate even when No one cares anymore, basically, to do that. 1:17:15Istora MandiriRight, but when you say no one cares. Then there's no funding anyway, because the base fee is zero. So Olympia doesn't solve it when we're. 1:17:25CitrullinIt's more… it's more of… 1:17:28Istora MandiriI think you… do you… Do you get the… the way that Olympia is funded? Like, the base fee thing, and the fact that if there are no transactions right now, which there aren't. They'll be lifted. 1:17:40CitrullinYeah, yeah, it's basically, they would like to have the mechanisms in place to solve the tragedy of commons, and you're arguing we don't have enough people using this utility to be safe, sustainable, and we all get that, but they would like to have the mechanisms now in place that's so Once it becomes so successful, that it can sustain itself. That you don't run into this issue in the future. 1:18:13Istora MandiriSo these are two separate… These are two separate arguments, so if they are arguing that we need to protect the future of VTC, maybe, let's say, for the sake of argument, 5 years in the future, when there are funds. then that's one thing, and that means that Olympia doesn't need to happen immediately. We don't need to rush this. We can, like, methodically create DAOs, test DAOs, in the meantime, because… 1:18:38CitrullinYeah, yeah, but, but, excuse me. just think about the environment, right? We have this situation now where Ethereum is the main smart contract blockchain, and everyone is rushing to do Ethereum, everyone is doing stablecoins, but we also know it's kind of a compromised project at this point, and it's doomed to fail. So, they know this risk, right? But they also are pressured to either way to push their customers onto one chain or another. And they would like to forcefully know, to push Ethereum Classic to become that thing. what Ethereum was supposed to be at some point. Do you see what I'm making? Is that what I mean? The whole environment. 1:19:21Istora MandiriNot really. 1:19:22CitrullinWishing them to do it. All about the incentives. 1:19:28Lunar WardenSo you're… you're trying… can you… can you maybe run that through again? So you're… you're saying that these guys, are trying to… Yeah. 1:19:38CitrullinYou're looking… you're looking at it from an isolated perspective. You're in the world of, if you're on Classic, and you're saying, like, okay, why does it have to be pushed right now when we can also just do it in 5 years, right? And I get it. I get that from your perspective, that's… that's your world. But they… their perspective… 1:19:59Istora MandiriLet me, let me change that. Let me change that, because it's not just doing it in 5 years, all things being equal, it's like, doing it in 5 years, if Ethereum Classic has reached block saturation, at which point there won't be a problem anymore. So why would you implement this thing when there's no problem? 1:20:18Lunar WardenLike, like this. 1:20:19CitrullinIt's like asking… it's like asking me, I have a cleaning business, why I want to have more pressure on the water pipes, and I'm telling you I need more water pressure so that I can't run my cleaning business, and you're asking me, yeah, well, it's not saturated yet. can you just not use the water pressure? And I'm telling you, give me more water pressure. Like, it's a chicken and egg problem. Like, yeah, I get your perspective, but if I'm an industrial company, you know, or even a collective of industrial companies. and you're telling me I can only do, like, a couple of transactions per second? Maybe if I'm… if I modify a based roll-up and make it myself, no one has done this on… 1:21:05Lunar WardenWhen you're saying water pressure. 1:21:06CitrullinAnd maybe I can do a couple of more, right? It's not enough, it's just not enough. 1:21:12Lunar WardenWhen you say water pressure, do you mean developer funding, as in, like, money, or do you mean. 1:21:17CitrullinNo, no, no, I'm talking about the underlying infrastructure on the gas, how much you can actually… 1:21:23Lunar Wardentransaction. 1:21:24Istora MandiriWell, these are… these are… no one's talking about changing transactions per second on ETC. Like, the base layer is basically… it's… It's scalable in the way that every blockchain is, which is… not. And there's nothing that can solve that, really, apart from Layer 2s. So, the amount of water pressure you're referring to in this analogy is not relevant to the Olympia discussion. What we're talking about is developer funding, and my argument is that when we reach the point where blocks are saturated, developer funding is not a problem anymore because everyone's… like, the price of ETC is up. And there'll be funding available through various Including the existing ones. 1:22:03Lunar WardenRight, like, people will just build on ETC. 1:22:08Citrullinthere will be a world where you have to pay people, and they don't just hold Ethereum Classic. I mean, that world already exists. 1:22:19Lunar WardenLook, I mean… People build on BTC because everyone uses BTC and everyone sort of respects it, right? And it'll be similarly for ETC. You don't need to… you don't need to pay people to list BTC, you don't need to pay people to develop on BTC or to use BTC. It just, people, people trust it because it's neutral, and it'll be the same thing for ETC, people trust… 1:22:45Citrullinyou're still… 1:22:46Lunar WardenAnd then the controller. 1:22:47CitrullinYou still need to pay people to fix a security issue at 4 AM in the night. They won't do that just by… we were holding It is… 1:23:01Lunar WardenThere are no… there are no security issues up for you. 1:23:06Citrullinthe point is that there… these scenarios happen in the real world. At some point, if. 1:23:13Istora MandiriIt happened on Bitcoin. 1:23:14CitrullinYet, they will… 1:23:17Istora MandiriIt's exactly the same as Bitcoin, I don't understand. why there's… why it should be different for ETC. 1:23:24CitrullinYeah, but Bitcoin isn't advancing, like, Bitcoin doesn't have smart contracts, Bitcoin isn't scalable, Bitcoin is actually centralized on Layer 2. So, from any metric, from what it was supposed to do. Like, you're arguing about the price of something, but that's not a metric to look at it, how it's successful. It should be more… how is it used in the real world for economic processes? And let's be real here, neither ETC nor Bitcoin nor Ethereum is used for anything… Serious. 1:24:01Istora MandiriStrongly disagree. I strongly disagree. I think Bitcoin… Bitcoin's providing a lot of value to the real world in ways that we. 1:24:06Lunar WardenOh, really? 1:24:07Istora Mandiriwant to pay. 1:24:08Citrullinthe toll for Hormuz, etc. Yeah, sure, for a couple of things. But it's not the… 1:24:14Istora MandiriIt's nice. 1:24:14Citrullinto do, right? It's a backstop. 1:24:17Istora MandiriThat's not, like… when people claim, oh, Bitcoin's not doing what it meant to do, I feel like… That's some kind of logical fallacy, like… no one really knew what Bitcoin was meant to do, and it's a technology, right? It's fire. Like, fire can be used for many different things. There's no, like, correct or incorrect way to use it. There's morally correct, morally incorrect ways, but, like, I don't think… the intent of Bitcoin really matters anymore, in terms of what it's actually found its… niche in the world for… 1:24:49Citrullinwhat are we talking about? Like, if it's not peer-to-peer cash, and if I can't use it for my industrial use cases now, and can't do my industrial DAO on ETC, or not on Ethereum, not on… like, what are we doing here? What's the point? Digital gold? Like. Yeah, sorry. Like, then… 1:25:11Lunar WardenETC is a kind of digital gold. It is like a kind of digital gold, but you also have smart contracts. It's like golden enforceable smart contracts. Like, imagine having to use ETC over ETH, like, what kind of… what kind of freak do you have to be to worry about, like. transaction finality. Like, that's what… that's what we're talking about. 1:25:30CitrullinI'm just… But I'm just telling you how it is, like, no one in the industry will use your systems if you say digital gold, that's the thing, that's what we aim for, just scarcity. And that's it? That's… 1:25:45Lunar Wardenwith it. 1:25:45CitrullinI kind. 1:25:45Lunar WardenDon't do anything with it. 1:25:46CitrullinLike, I can't… I can't… 1:25:48Istora Mandirinot it. Don't… 1:25:49Citrullineconomic processes. 1:25:52Istora MandiriWe have smoke. 1:25:52Lunar WardenContrasted. 1:25:53Istora MandiriIt's Bitcoin plus smart contracts. 1:25:55Lunar WardenIt's a smart contracts. It's, it's the digital gold. 1:25:57Citrullinunderlying… 1:25:58Lunar WardenThe conference will never change. 1:25:59CitrullinBut the underlying infrastructure is still limited and based on a gold standard principle at the end of the day, or even deflationary. 1:26:09Istora MandiriYou're arguing for changing the monetary supply, you're arguing for things that are just completely. 1:26:14CitrullinYeah. 1:26:14Istora Mandiriside, the Overton window in ETC's entire history, basically. So, I think, like, either there's a misunderstanding of what ETC is about for its entire history. And then, like, maybe some integration of those ideas in terms of, like, the Austrian economic side and, like, really the BTC plus smart contracts idea is part of the DNA. And if you want to change it away from that, then that's not ETC anymore, really. Even the Olympia people would agree with that, so… it's… you're trying to argue for something that is just not compatible with this project, I think. 1:26:54CitrullinSo, it's supposed to just die out of scarcity, and that's just it. That's the… 1:27:00Lunar WardenI mean, look, if you want to, like, feel free, like, pitch the idea, keep, like, if you find enough, like, people will have to, you know, to, you know, fork off. And… or… or even not fork off to… but it's just, like, it's… if you're talking about, yeah, changing the monetary supply, it is… it is kind of like a wacky idea. It is… it is kind of out there. I'm not saying, like, if you… if you make… So, so your argument is… your argument is, if it's too scarce, then the network will die out? Is that sort of… is that sort of the argument? 1:27:34CitrullinYeah. Yeah, because people will hold back and huddle and not use it in transactions, which we already can observe in any of these systems. And… and… that's it. 1:27:49Istora MandiriThe alternative is once. 1:27:50Citrullinstop using it. 1:27:51Istora MandiriThe whole reason… the whole reason we have this in the first place is because the alternative introduces subjectivity, which introduces a whole host of other problems. Politically, meat space capture, like, you need a foundation to decide who, like, what this new inflation rate is, and That's the trade-off that's intentionally made by ETC and Bitcoin, where you have this fixed emission curve. It's fixed because then you don't have to decide it anymore. It might not be perfect. That's the trade-off that's made. And everyone understands that, that's why they use the protocol to the extent they do. 1:28:21Citrullintrade-off… but the trade-off is you're not advancing anymore. That's the… that's the trade-off. 1:28:27Istora MandiriThat's fine. 1:28:27Lunar WardenCan you be specific, like, when you say advancing, like, what do you mean? 1:28:31CitrullinThere's no economic activity anymore. Scarcity will always lead to people holding back, because it's eventually worth more, and the economic activity will go down. Investments will go down, advancement will go down. 1:28:49Lunar WardenBut you're, you're using, like, if you just mean, like… Innovation. 1:28:53CitrullinPeople will… people will stop investing in stuff. 1:28:56Lunar WardenIt's not supposed to be an innovative chain. The innovation happens on ETH, L2s. It's not supposed to be an innovative chain. It's supposed to be something that's for your value. It's unsure. 1:29:07Istora MandiriHere's another extremely… an extremely popular, that's used all the time. protocol that does not change much at all is IP, like the internet protocol itself. Like, IPv4 hasn't changed in a while, if it has its incremental updates, but it's still extremely valuable, extremely useful, and extremely popular. So, if Ethereum Classic becomes something like IP, then I think that's a win, and just because it's not changing all the time doesn't mean that it's a failure. 1:29:38CitrullinBut it has all the downsides of Ethereum with nothing of the upside, like. 1:29:44Lunar WardenNo, no, it has the one upside. It has the only one upside, which is the transaction finale. Our only upside is that this, this does not change. You can trust ETC to be the same 10 years, in 10 years, whereas ETH, you know, who knows what they're gonna do with it. 1:30:01Istora MandiriThere's also many other benefits, like it's a diversification of security, like we have proof of work, we have this fixed emission curve, we don't have a foundation. And we have this principles-based decision-making process that has led us so far into a position that… is not the best that it could be, agreed. And… It might take time to reach that block saturation target. But… It's… it's a position where… we… By not changing much. with little effort, I think, can yield Massive amounts of success. And that doesn't require Treasury, it doesn't require Foundation, it doesn't require all the other trade-offs that have been intentionally made by other chains that will eventually lead them to their demise, as we've talked about previously with the DAOs and Other projects that have this central foundation that get captured and abused and misallocated. So ETC does not have that. 1:30:58Citrullinwith you on that front, but you're seeing it, like, black and white, like, the other side… outside. 1:31:07Istora MandiriAppliance… 1:31:07CitrullinYeah, aw. Yeah. 1:31:09Istora MandiriWhat you're presenting requires a foundation. It requires that subjective decision-making that is the downfall of other chains. 1:31:17CitrullinYeah, but you're seeing it, like, black and white, you're hearing DAO, and it's immediately, oh, it's evil, it's unlimited, it's whatever, they're doomed to fail. And the other side, this, Chris itself with Olympia, they are trying to force you down a throat, an old Dow model we have tried in this industry 100 times that is most likely going to fail. So. Why… there must be something that is more code is law perspective, where you bring way more stuff on-chain, and… also create this more sustainable environment with a DAO organization, whatever you want to call it. 1:32:02Lunar Wardenthe code is law thing only works if, you know, the social layer does not change underneath. The code is law thing only works if, like, we agree to run the same code, right? If the people are virtuous, because there's people at the end of the day running these machines, right? And if you start changing the code at the social layer or at the protocol layer, then the code is law thing just becomes… then it just unravels, then it's just like, okay, everyone's running their own machines, and you're back into, like, pure anarchy again. And so it's like, it has to be immutable. The code is law thing has to be immutable. That's why I'm so against, like, protocol upgrades in various forms. Like, the code is law thing only works if the code is immutable, and you can trust it to be the same, you know? 1:32:41CitrullinYeah, yeah, I'm, I'm… 1:32:42Lunar WardenI'm 100%, 100%. 1:32:44Citrullinwith that, but that's what I mean, like. 1:32:48Lunar WardenIf you're adding upgrades, if you're changing it, if you're adding innovations to it, if you're adding, like, major innovations to it, then it's not immutable anymore, then you're changing it. 1:32:57CitrullinEventually, you have to add innovations at some point, like, you cannot. 1:33:03Lunar WardenEverything ends, eventually, in 100 years, a thousand years, everything ends. But, like, you… you… this… you don't have to add innovations to BTC. BTC just works, and people trust it. Maybe in 100 years, it'll go away. Who knows? Who knows what'll happen? And same thing with ETC, you don't have to add innovations. This will just work. 1:33:26Istora MandiriRight, there is a balance between, like, upgrading and preserving CODIS law. Coder's Law is, like, If anything is… a mission statement for ETC, then that would be it, and that just means, like. We don't reverse transactions. Everything is serving that goal, I believe. Innovation, in and of itself. I mean, some people think it's good, some people think it's bad, but in any case, it introduces trade-offs, which is the political aspect of which upgrades get implemented. If you're trying to change the monetary supply, that's just… Completely out of… the question, I believe, for ETC, given, like, everything that's happened in the last 10 years, so… Unless there's an actual proposal here that's coherent and… aligns with the principles of ETC, like, there's… there's… There's a domain that we can work with, within, there's a framework that makes sense, and certain ideas are just not… Like, compatible with that, so… 1:34:34Lunar WardenTo be fair, to be fair, we're all crazy people on the internet. We're… all of us here are, like, crazy internet weirdos, so, like… but, we're open to all the crazy ideas. But, yeah, I mean, it's quite crazy, you know, like, changing the monetary supply. I mean, by all means, if you have… like, there could be, like, a socialist revolution on ETC when… when, I do legitimately think this will happen, like. imagine 30 years, you know, you have people growing up who had never had a chance to buy Bitcoin. Bitcoin's at $10 million per coin, or something like that. I do think, there will be some sort of, like, crazy forking dynamics, or, like, some sort of, like, way to desacralize Bitcoin, or something like that, that will happen. But it just seems… 1:35:18Istora MandiriQuite likely, in fact. 1:35:20Lunar WardenYeah, yeah, like, this… 1:35:21Istora MandiriAlso… I'm not saying people shouldn't… fork Ethereum Classic to do that. It's just that, like, today, if it happened, then the majority would very unlikely follow that chain. 1:35:33Lunar WardenYeah, I'm not… 1:35:34Istora Mandiriaround any, like, moral or philosophical judgment. It's just… 1:35:38Lunar WardenYeah. 1:35:43Istora MandiriOkay, and unfortunately. 1:35:45Lunar Wardenhave good reasons to, if you are… if you're… if you're… if you're, like, saying, you know, the emissions should be… should be changed in order for… for velocity or something, maybe, like, you have to have… it's sort of like the Trump thing, you know, you have to have, like… like, the Trump thing only works like Donald Trump, it only… it only works if there's, like, a huge sort of class of American farmers that feel that they have been, like, robbed from their fortune, whatever, by the elites, right? And you can imagine something like a socialist version of ETC would work in the future, if you have, like, an underclass of people who who have been toiling away without, without getting their, like, proper, you know, ETC or whatever. I don't know, something like that. But it just, it seems, it seems, like, quite… quite out there. No, I don't know. 1:36:41Istora MandiriI mean, yeah, it's always good to have new ideas, and… The process of debating things can often reveal interesting points, and I think we've had a few of those moments in this call, so I do appreciate all of the the input… I think, Either we can… okay, before I move on, are there any other comments on the… those four websites that are proclaiming, Olympia's gonna happen this year. I think… we've talked enough about Olympia, probably, and… We'll see what happens. I'm trying to think of what is gonna happen next, and… the next steps from the No Olympia side, and… Yeah, many things could happen. I just hope we don't enter this, really… unavoidable. Sorry, avoidable, dark. potential. Where things, get quite messy, but… 1:37:49CitrullinI always. 1:37:50Istora MandiriWe'll. 1:37:50Citrullineither way, it's going to be a good story. Whatever happens, it's going to be a story. 1:37:57Istora MandiriYeah, it will, it will. 1:38:00Lunar WardenWe have faith, if we have faith, what God shall provide. 1:38:05Istora MandiriRight. Shall we? My Bluetooth earphones are on low battery at this point, so… If you don't mind, this might be a good time to wrap things up. Was there anything else that anyone wanted to talk about before I do so? Okay, well, with, once again, another long and interesting community call, thank you, everyone, for participating in this call. The transcript and everything will be uploaded to the ETC Community Calls website, and… Thank you for joining. This time, we'll see you next call in two weeks, on the 1st of May. And… till then, take care. Stay safe. Have a good one. Keep it classy. 1:38:55Diego L.L.Thank you. 1:38:59Istora MandiriThanks, everyone. Take care. Goodbye.

Fifty and Counting

Key Points Discussed

Preamble

Today’s Agenda

Introductions

ETC in the News

Pull Request Corner

ETC Cooperative Development Update

Olympia Development Update

fukuii - 169 commits

ethereumclassicdao.org - 220 commits

olympiadao.org - 109 commits

olympiatreasury.org - 87 commits

ethereumclassic.com - 20 commits

Agenda

1559 Funding Mechanics

Miner Signalling Tools

Agentic Future

Mythos / Security Audit

Ossification

Network Value Index

Being Small as Strength

AI Summary

ETC Cooperative Development Update

Olympia Development Activity and Websites

Chain Split Risks and Ecosystem Impact

Based Rollups as Alternative to L1 Treasury

Ossification and Monetary Policy Debate

Action Items

Full Transcript