Logtrees

0:12Istora MandiriHello, and welcome to Ethereum Classic Community Call, number 51. Today is Friday, May 1st, 2026. This is a community call. It's an open voice chat to discuss Ethereum Classic. Everyone is welcome. The call will be published on YouTube. We kindly ask that discussion stays focused on ideas rather than individuals, and let's keep it classy. The next call is scheduled for the 5th of May… 15th of May. Join us in the green room, one hour before the call for an unrecorded hangout. Same time, same place. Find past episodes, transcripts, subscribe to the calendar, and more at cc.freeumeclassic.org. The last call covered a lot of philosophical grounds, and this week we'll catch up on some more future ideas, exploring the ETC space with a guest that's on some previous calls. So… Why don't we kick things off with introductions? Let's say, first, hello to Jessian. You're joining us again? 1:17JustjinWhat's going on, guys? I'm just outside walking, enjoying the weather. Hope you guys are nice. 1:27Istora MandiriYeah, all good here. Thanks, Justin. Codeaholic? 1:33codeaholicYes, yes. Hey. Hi, yeah, it's me, Codeaholic, I'm building in, Ethereum Classic, building log trees, and working on Quantum hardening research and implementation. Nice to meet you all. 1:49Istora MandiriAwesome. Thanks for joining us again, and looking forward to our discussion. About your topics that you're bringing. So… We've had a pretty quiet couple of weeks, at least publicly. That doesn't mean nothing's been happening behind the scenes, but in terms of updates from the Request Corner, we had, basically, Not much happening apart from one PR on Core Geth. Which, is a bit of a blast from the past, So we have the… we had the pull request created by… And cough? Alex, who was part of the ETC community Maybe still is, but was definitely more active in, like, 2019, I believe. And the pull request is… implementing ECIP 1049, which is a SHA-3 hashing algorithm that we talked about. In length? Several years ago? So, interesting to see this forest happen. There's no description or comment provided, but… If he's listening to this, it'd be great to… See what he's thinking, jump on the next call. And, I think the Shaw Street debate? kind of… fizzled out. And was withdrawn, but if they're still interested in it, it'd be good to continue that discussion. So PR698, adding SHA3 KCAP 2. Ethereum Classic. We have an update from the Olympia side, which is that, ETC GrantsDAO and Aunt Paul have both signed nolympia.dev. Which is the petition against Olympia. So… This is quite a big deal, because these are two major players. Ample being a large… hash rate mining pool and ETC GrantsDAO being, like, currently the primary funder of activity on ETC. So… At least in terms of giving out grants. So, yeah, this is formally registering opposition to the Olympia Treasury proposal, and these significant stakeholders are basically signaling their opposition to it. So, this further solidifies the reality that Olympia It's unlikely to be a smooth transition, and it's definitely considered contentious at this point. So, how does this change the calculus of a chain split? And exchange outreach is becoming more or less Essential? Like… Olympia guys, if you're listening, it'd be great to figure out what we should do next as a community. They're still silence from their part. But it's increasingly looking like we need to coordinate something. 2… Mitigate the effects of a chain split, if that's what's gonna happen. Okay, I think we can jump straight into the discussion today, which is… with Codeaholic. Codeaholic, why don't you just, lay out what you plan to talk about, and we can just, go by there. 5:11codeaholicSure, yeah, so I will be as brief as possible so as to not monopolize the time, but Long story short, I, saw that there was this conversation around Olympia, and very interesting conversation around how there could possibly be a base fee, and have this base fee, fund useful development in core Etsy. And, then I observed that there was some contention around the rollout of this, this disagreement in the community, and I decided to create a, a foil to it, so, like, if you don't mind, I'll share my screen briefly. To show you, some things. So let me find… Share screen button. Okay, so, I created this FOIL, let me find the tab, Here we are. And, it's called Elysium, and what you'll find in the contents of these ECIP drafts discussion is just some drafts that are basically saying the same thing that Olympia's saying. With the difference being that the actual, change that I would be proposing from a core code point of view is way less code to just route the base fee by percentages into some smart contracts. And, if you were to compare the CoreGeth Delta, Code Delta that I have as a draft with what Olympia has as a draft, you would find that, they have way more code changes that they're performing even on their client. But what is the purpose of Elysium? Like, why would I create a FOIL? And it's very simple. The argument I'm making is, if there would be an effort to have a base fee coming from the blockchain itself. As a protocol change, then it should be driving utility, where utility means that the chain is driving useful applications, which will incentivize users to have an interest in using those applications, and thereby the tokens That are powering those applications. So, in the context of Elysium, you can see here I have this web version of the paper, too, or ECIPs, where it'll describe in a higher detail what is the point of this. And, like, in what way is Elysium providing that utility by comparison with Olympia, if Elysium was to get the same base fee. And this page is just showing some examples where If you have a system that is, as this photo shows, giving somebody a reward, in this case a nut. for… Telling the system that they did something, like planting a tree, or taking care of a tree. What you could do is you could have a model where the result of all of those actions is represented here with this aggregate function. And… 8:12Istora MandiriIf… 8:14codeaholicIf all of those actions are, what you can consider to be, like, from the set of positive actions. Then… One of the implications of that is that you could have the base fee reward those users. And thereby, it would be like a bootstrapping function to drive further usage and adoption. So, to go along with Elysium, like, Elysium is powered by something called log trees, which is powered by my algorithm called Log N. And, I wanted to just do a brief demo. So, like, this is… this is Logtrees. It's a map application, where the intention is to say, that as people perform these activities, like planting trees, or taking care of themselves, or the environment. It'll start to build up that state where, because of these actions, you can assign a measurable value to say that efficiency was obtained. And this mathematic is detailed in my white paper and in my paper on log N, but I just want to do a brief demo. So, like, earlier today, I made this video here where… it's a video where I'm planting where I'm planting my, my first ever Korean lilac, and, it's just, like, a video of me enjoying the financing process for my social media. So, what Logtrees does is, it provides you with, like, this possibility to do what is called ultra-linking. Where, right now, I'm gonna just tell Logtrees that I, I planted this Korean lilac at this link, which is just my existing link already. And then if I plant it with Web3, and then I pay some Ethereum cost in this case, which is just the electricity cost to inscribe this plant into the record, and to be committed to it. In this case, it's Ethereum, but it will also support Ethereum Classic. I will perform this plant… this planting, and it'll write the record into the tree map, which is the data model that is being aggregated as people will use this system. And, once this is completed as a transaction, let me… There we go. What it does is, it rewards you with some experience points, it rewards you with some commentary. And, in a minute or two, like, this value here will increment. It's processing on the backend, and it's… it's pretty slow, because it's just a bare-bones server that I use. But the numbers will increment as users submit those events, and You will also see this, reflected in your nursery. So as you… as you do… as you perform actions, your imputables, is what they're called, they will either thrive or wither. And you can even have some for, like, eating healthy. So you can see I… it's been a while since I logged a healthy meal. So, this… this is a withered state. But the point of this is to say, once users perform these actions, they will have these beautiful representations of what exists on the chain. And because of, like, what the nature of Elysium is, is it's, it's designed to be immutable. As to always exist, and because these actions are… From the set of, from the set of log-annibal or logable actions. All of them have a mathematic associated with them, so here I'll just show you real briefly in the white paper. All of them, all of these actions have some… measured basis in dollars or any fiat currency, where you could say that if users are incentivized to continue doing these actions. And we can incentivize them with this system, with this blockchain. there is a certain amount of reward that can be given to them. So this is where the base fee would be used as a bootstrapping function to drive further usage of this. And, one might say, okay, well, how does that not become an Ouroboros, where you have a bootstrapping, but, you know, where does that go? Well, one of the things that's detailed in this really long white paper is the implications for carbon-negative compute. In fact, that is the name of the white paper. It's Carbon Negative Blockchains Via Log Trees. So… I see. TLDR is, you perform these registrations, and users will be incentivized to do it because They'll build up their nursery of beautiful imputables. And, these imputables will have, in-game functions through something called derivables, where you'll be able to, like. Even… even zoom in really close to where you are, if you wanted to have, like. you can already see I'm starting to implement, an inventory, and there are… there are intended minigames to incentivize people from… from the point of view of, like, having them want to play around with this and use it, from a mobile point of view, to be clear. But I know that was a lot, so I didn't prepare any of this, I just jumped right in, so if you want me to talk about any of this in particular, by all means, otherwise, this was just a brief example of… this is an application that the data model is… based on the blockchain, in this case Ethereum, Ethereum Classic and Ethereum, it's deployed to both. And if it's provable that this can generate impetus in a person to perform these activities, which it will, and it would, and I have some data already from a small sample size. Then, this is a strong economic justification for Ethereum Classic. Like, this will give Ethereum Classic primacy over every other chain, from a valuation point of view, if you Project the math out, at least. And this is a lot to unpack, I'll be in the server. Any questions at all of any kind? please feel free to ask me in the server, or you can ask me on YouTube or anywhere, and, happy to answer them. But, yup, that was… that was, like, my little, oh, did I… did I stop? Oh, okay, thankfully I'm still sharing. So, that was what I wanted to show you, so I'll stop sharing unless you want me to reshare and… Go over any of that again? 14:30Istora MandiriOkay, thank you for the demo. It looks very, appealing, visually, and yeah, it's… Definitely… something that I think… I've been thinking about as well, actually, a similar kind of system with incentivisations for Performing actions, basically. And using a blockchain to reward people for doing stuff. I think is a very, ugh… It's gonna be a large part of How people organize in future in general. 15:07JustjinThere's a sincere action, yeah. 15:10Istora MandiriYeah, yeah. And. 15:13codeaholicI, what I really like about it is that it's, it's, like, it curates itself, because the only actions which have that effect are defined in the white paper categorically, and Meaning, an action has to be from the set of loggable actions that are in the set of login actions, and what that… all that means is that they are non-zero-sum actions, fundamentally. So, if you wanted to model this mathematically. You could, you could… or philosophically, you could approach it from a point of view of patternism as a philosophy, but basically. nobody loses from, you know, like, somebody taking care of a plant in their backyard or something, or cleaning up trash or tagging trash is one of the components of this. Like, nobody loses anything, so it improves the system. 16:03Istora Mandiribefore I jump into some technical stuff, Justin, did you wanna… Jump in? 16:10JustjinNo, I was just… I didn't mean to be down… I don't mean to be down or anything like that, but the… if… if there was… if there was, like, a forest fire, let's say, like, how would you… would you be able… like, is there ways to… How would you monitor to that? And, you know… 16:25codeaholicThat's a very good question. I think that if there was a forest fire and somebody's trees were being used for this system, that would suck, because it would represent that they lost the basis for getting their rewards. But this is something that would be just, like, a feature to implement, where maybe we would say, hey, like, your forest burned down. Well. 16:46JustjinWelcome. 16:46codeaholicResult of the forest burning down, and then rebuild. 16:50Istora MandiriYeah, I guess that's closely related to my first question, which is, how do you validate the actions that are actually performed on-chain? 16:59codeaholicThat's a fantastic question, and that's also one of the questions I was recently asked at, like, the symposium where I presented this at, and in some side channels, and including when I submitted my paper on login. It's a subset of the white paper. I submitted that to a journal for review, and that was also one of the questions that I got back. But, what I can say about this is that I have multiple algorithmic basis by which this verification will happen on the backend. And, I mean, one of them that I can give you is, like, the geo-positioning of your phone, relative to other people who have this system on their phone as well that they're using, will enable a kind of validation in person as people engage in these activities together. So you have, like, a network effect that Makes it way harder to, to fib or to outright lie about these types of things. Because, to move beyond the bounding functions on rewards to prevent, like, Sybil attacks or other types of attacks. will require that users begin to engage with those verification layers that are being built. But yes, this needs to have, like, a strong verification background so that on the back end, you cannot have a Sybil attack or somebody just trying to manipulate the system. But there are multiple ways. This is one of the… my white paper is being distilled into multiple papers that I'm submitting. This is the next paper that I'm gonna be submitting, is what are the verification strategies that I'm using? There's gonna be two, maybe three, defined in this paper, but my goal with this is not to reach, like, 100% confidence, because I don't think that's really possible. But even if it is, what I've observed is that after a certain amount of measurement? Like, from a system point of view, you could end up spending more resource or energy to do a deeper probing of something, then you get back. So, like. I'm not gonna say, like, I will justify a fraud or anything like that, but just to say that my intention with these verification layers that I'm implementing, is going to be to reach, like. 95%, or, like, some, like, 5.9s equivalent of reliability for this. 19:17Istora MandiriBoom. I sent a link in the chat, which… Is, a presentation about an idea that's somewhat related to this, that I'm planning to build, actually, and I wanna, like… Say that because we have such overlap. And you've already brought some new ideas to the table. I'm thinking, like, we could potentially collaborate on this build-out. of something… that is… Essentially the same idea, just we have slightly different like, my… Conclusion was that the objective verification step is… really difficult, and… consuming a lot of gas if you can do stuff, like the off-chain verification of GPS and that kind of stuff. So, I concluded that… The validation step? Could just be done by people. that you… you define in the system to be validators of certain actions, and they approve or deny that certain actions have taken place. They get rewarded for doing so, so they're incentivized to participate, and they are separate from the people doing the actual actions. So there's, like, this… Three-way split of Responsibilities, where you have the funding. The validating and the action-taking as different entities that are kind of checks and balances between them. And this means that you can… 20:51codeaholicI like it, I love it. 20:53Istora MandiriYeah, you can't, like… You can… you can… the benefit is you can apply it to anything. Like, it's a general approach, so you don't need to, like, Limited just to planting trees. Using geographic validation, and relying on the… The… the cryptography there. But you can apply it to things like making a tweet, or… Joining a community call, or something like that. Or planting a tree, which I think is also a good idea. And I like the… 21:24codeaholicIn case, oh, yep, sorry, go ahead. 21:26Istora MandiriYep. I really like the idea of the… the nursery, or the… Basically, it's kind of like streak management, where for each different type of contribution, you're incentivized to continue doing it. Which I think is a nice mechanism. 21:45codeaholicYes, and the intention with the nursery is that the data model is super simple, or intended to be super simple, and I will provide the means so that anybody will always have their nursery with them, even if it's outside of this specific tool or platform, because that's the whole point of, like, ultra-linking. is to say, hey, don't bother to give me your photo or your video unless you really want to. Like, I have that capability, too, to make it a more fun user experience, perhaps. But rather, give me your. 22:13Istora MandiriOr an ultra-link? What's. 22:16codeaholicYeah, Ultralink is… Ultralink is just what I'm calling the, like, for example, you have hyperlinking, which is, like, a construct of the web where you give somebody a link to something, and the hyperlink is then… a very powerful way to share information, so this is one of the early concepts of the web. What I'm calling an ultralink is to just say. it's a link where you… it's pointing to one of your own social medias, like, one of your own social media posts. It could be TikTok, YouTube, X, anything. And, it's… it's wrapping it inside of a… of a function that. 22:50Istora MandiriInteresting. 22:50codeaholicmeasures it and drives value, and that function is just this registration inside of log trees, because the result of that is going to be another link, which points to the registration and street management and things of this nature, and over time, the measured result of whether or not you're achieving what you're setting out to achieve. Cool. So that is what. 23:10Istora MandiriComputing. 23:10codeaholicUltralink. 23:12Istora MandiriRight, do you see the link that I sent in the chat? If you open that and jump to the 15… 15 minute 14 seconds mark. A lot of this is… basically exactly the same, but I'm not calling it an ultralink, but it's a… you're, like, embedding these real-world attestations of activity into the blockchain, and then giving it a value. 23:38codeaholicYes, and for me, I'm calling it, like, like, laser tag, because for a lot of these components, or, like, actions that are performable. Being that they're tied on… onto a map. Where, like, the intention. 23:52Istora Mandiriis to happen. 23:52codeaholichave, games that exist on the map, I'll be able to… oh, sorry, I got distracted. What was I just mentioning about. 24:05Istora MandiriLaser tag. 24:05codeaholicWe were talking about… Oh, yeah, laser tag, yeah. So, we're… I'm calling it laser tag because the verifa… one of the verification strategies is intended to be fun, to have… also, as you call them, validators, to have people who are valid… validators just play laser tag with each other to verify either that they are truthful, or to catch somebody in the act of, like, fibbing, but… This is intended to be, a fun… a fun platform, primarily, so… I am From a point of view of how to have it be, like, a positive reinforcement versus… Something punitive? 24:40Istora Mandirigamification. 24:42codeaholicGamification, yeah. 24:43Istora MandiriYes, yes. 24:43codeaholicAnd, but yeah, I'm very excited about… 24:46Istora MandiriShow that someone… I mean, yeah, these are very similar ideas, and come from completely different like… We had no prior conversations about them, but they're almost… like, apart from the naming, they're really similar. So I think this is an awesome opportunity. to collaborate on building something, so we don't, like, copy each other's work, or duplicate work. Copying is fine, but… Yes! 25:12codeaholicYeah, and in the case of how this all relates back to Ethereum Classic, then, I mean, I think that's pretty obvious, but I'm very excited, because this just, for me at least, this just shows that Elysium is the right direction to say, hey, if there is going to be a base fee, then let the base fee bootstrap all of this, or let's not have And instead, just leverage the power of the community to say, yo, we got this grant money, or that it's possible to raise some. for that bootstrapping, and then we don't need a base fee. We don't need to have, like, a risk to the Ethereum Classic internals, if it could be called a risk. I don't know if it can or can't yet, because I guess that's complicated, but you know what I mean, I guess. I'm just saying that from my If there is going to be a base fee, then we're already aligned on how can we generate utility for Ethereum Classic With, with, you're calling it nourishment? I like that. Nourishment. That's it? That's amazing. 26:08Istora MandiriIt's the old… it's an old name, I think it might need a new, catchier thing, but that was the old… 26:15codeaholicNo, Norrisman's. 26:16Istora MandiriDouble meaning. 26:16codeaholicYou're nourishing, yeah, double meaning. You're nourishing yourself and you're minting. 26:21Istora MandiriYeah. And then it could evolve to flourishment, but… the… the thing… yeah, the key point that you just mentioned that I think is really important is… By having this system, you are presenting alternatives to… Where the base fee could go. and Olympia as the only place Is a presupposition that needs to be challenged. That's one thing. 26:50codeaholicYes. 26:51Istora MandiriAs in, like, why should it go to this undefined DAO, as opposed to a system like Elysium. 27:00codeaholicYes, because we could totally build it that way. 27:03Istora Mandirianswered. Right, right. 27:05codeaholicWe totally build it so that we, we, like, the base fee really does get routed into… I mean, other people have mentioned it, like smart contracts, or something that is more hands-off. But. 27:17Istora MandiriYep. 27:18codeaholicI mean, I think… I think if an LLC or, like, an entity were to collect the base fee, then Maybe it's not into a smart contract, but at least it would be an entity that has something like nourishment or luxuries to go along with it, and to be, like, to have something to show to the community and say, like, hey, we actually care about Ethereum beyond the… current token value, like, how can we drive user adoption of useful stuff, or things that are useful, and that people like, that are beautiful and fun? Because then the token value in the future will go up anyway, you know, like, it doesn't matter if it's now or 5 years, who cares, because… I'm trying to build for, like, the next thousand years, or million years, you know? 28:03Istora MandiriTotally. And you can have different pools of… things of actions that are incentivized. So if you're a… I've described them as benefactors in the nourishment system, but someone that wants to donate and increase the value of ETC or any project, really, they can decide themselves how to allocate, and the validators that validate are incentivized to behave well, because then they get those donations. And… Downstream, the actual actions that Have the largest amount of funds available will be the ones that will be incentivized the most. But that's not, like, leaving certain things out, maybe it's just a proportion. Like, 80% is to planting trees, and then 20% goes to Some other net negative thing. Right. But it's not just… 29:00codeaholicWhat up? 29:00Istora Mandirito you. one benefactor either. Like, you can have… A set of validators that are validating whether someone, Attends an event. And if that event… Has a bunch of different sponsors, then they can donate to this fund in order to incentivize people to go to the event. Specifically. 29:24codeaholicNice, yeah, I like that, because the way that I'm doing this is based on… Taking existing… data that is a baseline representation of the costs of the vices that gave me the set of actions that are part of the loggable login actions. And, using data that exists to say, this is worth this much, this is worth this much. So it's not so much about somebody incentivizing, as much as saying, on the existing math, X has a certain cost in the future, and therefore, with modern monetary theory, and with the fiat currencies that we have, not just the dollar, there's other ones that are extremely powerful. But the dollar absolutely is a very powerful currency as the reserve currency of the planet. It's an earned status because, for example, the USA rebuilt the world more than once after World War I, World War II. This is one of the reasons why we have the reserve currency, but because of the power of this, we can say that we don't need to proactively incentivize something for login, we can just say, what is it actually worth today, if we were to incentivize it? Because then it's not arbitrary, then it's based on the actual value of things. And when approaching it that way, it produces the set of actions which are non-zero-sum, meaning nobody's actually… nobody loses anything or gets adversely affected. It is… it is a more constrained set of actions than… in your model, I think, perhaps, where, like, you can define the incentive, too, if I understood it correctly, or if that's what you're hoping for, but I think your model is also very powerful for the next step, where there are some things that I would want to incentivize. like your example with attending a conference or attending a call or something, those are very good things to incentivize, but the login itself just doesn't have the math to be able to do that, because it's a very powerful, granular accounting tool, effectively, but just not for not just for everything, just for, like, a very constrained set of things. So, I would love to work with you more and talk with you more about this. 31:33Istora MandiriCool. Could you, step me through the aggregation function. 31:40codeaholicSure. So, as… as… as users use this platform. We could say users, of size N, end users. They submit their logins, and these are just events. There are objects that are written to the blockchain. And at any point in time. the aggregate… aggregate is called the tree map, I'm calling it the log trees tree map. It's just the sum total of all of the events, so… to represent it as an object, it would just be a list of objects. So if you were to… when I… I'm gonna make it possible for any user to just go to my repo on GitHub and Download the open source event scraper for this, so that you can have the entire tree map on your machine if you want, but it's really just going to be the data dump from the blockchain of all of the events that were written to it. So the aggregate function at that point is just to say… it was actually reflected on the map. Because it's an actual map, too, where you can see the total state of all the actions contributed. And you can see this as a tally, like, all the numbers tallied up to say, like, this many trees total, or this many trees per center. Where a center is something like a state or a province of a country that doesn't have states. But, yes, the… that… that is… that… it's a very simple function, or, like, a very simple model of the world, to say, like, what is… what is the total number of… Logins that happened, or that exist now, at this point in time. 33:17Istora MandiriOkay. 33:17codeaholicAnd it's just, querying a function on the smart contract to say, like, give me, give me the… give me the representation. Which is, from a smart contract design point of view, is, I guess this is something that's worth bringing up, is the privacy aspect of this, because… You might… you might not, as a user, want all of the login actions to be public or known to other users. Maybe you just want to perform them publicly, er, privately, and still get the reward. And, there are strategies for this, but, Yeah. But yeah, because of the data model, what the data model is doing, and when you query it, is it'll just give you obfuscated counts. And, there will be a wallet address, or a… An identifier, which is specific to log trees. But what this enables is, you get the immutability benefits of the blockchain without the user's specific information being directly accessible. You need to… you need… you need log trees to have a translation layer. But it's still extremely valuable for the rewards function, because the immutable nature of the registration and the electricity costs associated with it, these are like a curation on people just submitting things for no reason. So, even if… even if you don't know who's in the tree map. The fact that there is a tree map is all that really matters for the purpose of the aggregate, or, like, obtaining the aggregate function, or seeing what is the aggregate state. But have I answered your question about the aggregate function, or were you hoping for something else? 34:57Istora MandiriI think I understand it, The two unanswered questions would be. What is it used for, other than just a metric? Is it actually used to, like, divide rewards or something like that? Or is it just, like… to see how performant the system is over time. Like, it's a number that goes up That shows that it's healthy. And then… 35:28codeaholicIt's definitely both. Oh yeah, go ahead. 35:31Istora MandiriYeah. The second question would be, like. how does this aggregation actually technically happen? Is it an accumulator, or is it, like… You query and dynamically generate an aggregation. 35:50codeaholicYeah, great questions. Okay, so first question was about, like, what is the point about… or what is the point behind the tree map? Is it just to have something that goes up in value? I think it's nice that it goes up in value, I think it's beautiful, like, if you have a planet, and you can get to the point where you've logged or tagged all of the trees on the planet, and you're able to see their health, their status. But not just trees, but anything… anything that is in the set of loggable actions in Logad. That's really, really cool and beautiful. Like, I think even… it's not just that, but if it was even just that, I think there'd be plenty of people who would want to use it. But there are very interesting emergent properties from having that kind of data, because if you superimpose the registrations onto a map. you can… you can get all kinds of, like, higher order levels of information, about many different things. So, one of the intentions is to say, hey, we should have a very high-quality data layer that we can then perhaps query. Or build additional things on top of it. One of the things that is buildable in this way would be something called, like, a light map, so you would be able to see where are there a lot of good things happening, where are there not a lot of good things happening, and then that could apprise people who are in charge of allocating resources, but there are so many applications that are possible. And my intention with it is… I have a couple of intentions. One is to have it be beautiful. Two is to have it always exist, so that if you are one of the people who's building up the tree map. You could just enjoy the fact that you're always building it up. You can look on your phone and see your nursery, in whatever iteration, maybe you'll implement your own UI around the data model if you want, or, like. just rely on me to make the most beautiful one, because that's my goal. But it's also intending to attach people to the concept of there being a very big, bigger-than-you data structure that represents all of the good that is happening. Certainly you can add intelligence to this, too, but beyond that, once… once there's a big enough aggregate, my… my personal goal with it, beyond making it beautiful and fun and sentimental, is to really just drive home the idea to… at a… at a governance level, or for, like, State Fair. To say that the economic prospect that is obtained is a very positive one. And this is a direct response to, like, any anxieties people might have around AI displacing labor, or even things like, like deficits affecting a nation-state's ability to, like, feed its people, or something like that. Recently in the US, we had a very funny Well, it wasn't all funny, but we had a very interesting experience with Elon Musk and Doge. I don't know if you're aware of this, but basically, we have this entrepreneur who got some, governance authority, and his entire spiel was to say, how can we reduce government inefficiency? But what that ended up turning into was, like. Gutting a lot of programs that even… even his side didn't really want to go in that direction. And, I was observing all of this, and I was like, what the hell is going on? Because the USA is not only not broke, we're extremely wealthy, and not just the USA. And, and the USD is an extremely powerful fiat currency, because You don't go through two world wars, and… the black swan of COVID and the Great Recession. and provide liquidity to the entire planet without having, like, a very solid logistics system, very solid finance system. So, it's a proven… it's a proven currency, and… when I was observing the fact that, like, any nation-state would have a problem with overloadedness of deaths and things like this, I was like, wait a minute, that doesn't make any sense. So I would want this tree map to just be a ever-growing representation of a… Continuity, because the economic implication is… is that On modern monetary theory, and with the fiat currency that we have, of the reserve currency of the USD, And I would also say at this point, yuan and yen are definitely also reserve currencies in my book, because I mean, in the case of the pandemic, I think it was only a few years ago, so people remember very well how it was. Like, there was, like, no stuff on the shelves in some cases, people were hoarding toilet paper, and if it wasn't for the US dollar, but also the yuan. I think the world would have collapsed because of just lack of impetus to generate, forward motion economically. But because of these tools, and because of the tree map, we will be able to avoid this problem in the future. We will be able to say. Hey, there's a very, like, strong theoretical, mathematical underpinning to say, like, these fiat currencies, they're not beholden to scarcity in the same mindset because of modern monetary theory. Which drives, impetus for us. Us being people, or us on this call being people that are trying to build, interesting blockchain applications or core blockchains. It drives impetus because We can identify bootstrapping functions that will prevent us From ever having a situation where, like, a very huge entrepreneur with, like, Doge, can potentially, like, accidentally fire the nuclear safety experts, which actually did happen. They were moving so fast that they fired some nuclear safety experts, and they had to scramble over the weekend to rehire them. And that was pretty ridiculous. Or even just, like, commentaries they were making about things like Social Security income, which in the United States is, like, a retirement benefit that basically everybody pays it to, and you get if you actually look at the math behind it, it's a pretty sound program, but because of Doge, and just, like, a lot of, like, fear-mongering about the nation-state's financing, and, Just, like, a lot of fixation on a model of scarcity that is really, like, very ancient from, like, 100 years ago or 200 years ago. you know, I just want to avoid that. So that's my real hope with the tree map, is to just build it up and say, hey, we can avoid that, and basically everybody will have a prospect or a path forward. The one last thing I want to say about it is. on a practical, like, to answer your question practically, like, what does it actually achieve? If everything I just said happens, what is the actual practical result for a person? Well, this is defined in my white paper, but basically. to… to… to point to, like, Sam Altman, for example, who has his paper on Universal Basic Income, and… the marginal costs of business going down to zero, and how that can create a UBI. well, this… this is an attempt to produce what I'm calling a productive universal basic income, so it's, like, the predecessor to that, because I think that's, like, more in the future, and I think that precedes Elon Musk's universal high income, but to get to those two things is, productive universal basic income. Where if log n can scale, then I believe that this will basically facilitate, like, a college… a college lifestyle for anybody who is seeking to be a productive person. 43:18Istora MandiriOkay. Cool, yeah, I think there's… so many… Areas where blockchains can allow more exotic incentivization strategies. And… Basically, the legacy system that we're all… that you've just described is… Kind of clunky now, and… as you say. Not necessarily yielding the results that everyone would like. And… By experimenting in the blockchain space, we can really, like, find these more reliable strategies. Not just for, determining how things should be spent, but also, like. Defining the relationship between the… the flows of… incentivization, I guess? Like… How do we not just, incentivize one-off things, but long-term commitments, like you have already, like, looked at with the streaks? And… 44:30codeaholicYes. 44:30Istora MandiriMaybe even longer-term things, like… The whole idea of having a contract with an employer Made sense when everyone was going to an office. But now everyone's like. online, maybe working, not in one place, maybe going to different countries. Maybe with AI, people have multiple projects. Maybe they're not thinking about, oh, I'm going to spend my entire week doing this one thing. I want to be incentivized to do this thing that I find interesting, or that thing, temporarily, and still be able to be rewarded for doing so. And you can kind of granularize and tokenize your tasks. And… Incentivize work to happen. In a way that's much more… I guess, fungible. Instead of having, like, a big bar or a block of work time. You could then just work on what you think is gonna provide value. 45:28codeaholicYes, and on the subject of providing value, as I described in my white paper, there's, like, a trifold or three-fold basis by which there could be a bootstrapping function obtained even just with fiat currency for this, meaning… this is why I say that Elysium doesn't actually require a base fee. It's just… it exists as a foil to Olympia to ensure that if Olympia gets a base fee, that it's done correctly, but… Basically, because of the way that this does generate value, if users are successfully incentivized. It reduces nation costs in the future, because all of the… all of the loggable actions directly improve parameters, either in people's bodies or in the system. And, this is all based on what is the actual quantified cost of these things, up until this point in time, on a dollar basis. So that's extremely powerful, because then… then, you, you could say that this… this is like a justified… I call it a justified print event. for fiat currency. It's, it's like, it's… it's the equivalent of… of a town or a city raising money to build a bridge that will be productive economically. Very productive, even. 46:44Istora MandiriRight. 46:45codeaholicBut it takes some time to build the bridge, so this is the equivalent of this. But it is based on the value, that… 46:53Istora MandiriThere's a direct analogy with ETC whales, basically. for them, They are… They have… they have this, like, if you're sitting on a lot of ETC, The amount of value that you get from giving a small portion of that to developers massively outweighs the actual cost of it, because, like, percentage-wise, if the price of ETC goes up twice, then you've made way more than the cost of actually hiring that developer. So, the problem is there's no, like, mechanism To delegate those kind of tasks to people. And I think that's what we can solve here, by creating this smaller-scale incentivization system. the ETC grants DAO were trying to do, but… Requires, like. a lot of effort, and can only really fund large projects because of that. So, like. Basically, this, as you say, justified print would be a whale giving some ETC to this protocol. in return for increasing the value of ETC. And that makes everyone happy. 48:09codeaholicYes, and it can also be a nation-state deciding to allocate fiat currency as well. I think it's gonna be the best result to facilitate all of them. Like, I'm not gonna say only one, because I think they're all amazing. 48:23Istora MandiriRight. 48:24codeaholicBecause of that, 48:27Istora MandiriSorry, nation-states, while I'm on this… while you're mentioning that point, there's this kind of trick that a nation-state could play, where they buy a bunch of ETC, and then they print a bunch of money to buy some more ETC, which increases the actual value. That they're holding. and they're probably doing this already with Bitcoin, but if you can not just buy the ETC, but also increase it in value by injecting incentives for people to build on it, then it's like… it's a better… vehicle, I guess? Where… like, on the one hand, you could just buy ETC, and you increase the… Demand slightly. Relative to its overall net worth, its overall market cap, by… you know, you're just buying… whatever's on sale in the market, and that bumps the price slightly, or you could, like, 50-50 buy ETC, but also spend the rest to actually increase the value of ETC fundamentally. And that's likely to have, like, a much higher return of investment than just buying ETC on its own. 49:29codeaholicAgreed, and that's exactly how I think about it, too. And with respect to fiat currency here being used to provide any brute strapping. It would not be, like, the former thing that you mentioned, except maybe only slightly, because It's based on modern monetary theory that we've had in play for over 100 years now, and what all this means is that if this is really like building a bridge, then my model, which is described in the white paper, allows a nation-state to obtain that increasing token value While also driving down their own debts, and this is because of. The, the threefold approach, where, somebody, somebody in this case, being a government, would put money in. to bootstrap the reward mechanism, and what they would get would be larger than that because of log N, which is to say a lot of things that were already being incentivized in the past are actually more productive than our… than people realized. And we can have, like, a powerful accounting tool to just say, hey, like, all of this stuff that we already did. It was actually more valuable than we thought, so… let's enjoy some additional money. And I don't think that's a bad thing to say for a government, because if it's actual, like, if the math is not lying, which it's not. then it's a nice windfall where you can reward people, and you can pay down your local debts. So that's extremely powerful. 51:02Istora MandiriYeah. Another interesting mechanism, just thinking out loud here, is… To incentivize adoption. You could have, like, tail-end mechanisms where… You get rewarded for the… Work you do, but you also then get, like, a cut of all future awards. like a diminishing amount of future rewards. So basically, the earlier you adopt, the more long-term value you kind of lock in. in a… In every future distribution. So there's tons of, like, exotic, cool things that we could try and figure out to incentivize participation in this, and I look forward to future discussions about these mechanisms, because I think we're… We're… Sharing a lot of the same… thoughts in terms of solutions, and I think that we are on the right track. for… Like, how funding should actually happen, and… and… Actually defining something that could work. That's… that's within the realm of… feasibility with small teams and small projects like ETC. And it doesn't rely on, like, a voting mechanism. that a DAO would have. And I think that provides some additional… Benefits. I… 52:36codeaholicI agree. I'm very excited. 52:39Istora MandiriYeah, cool. We should be… I'll DM you after this call, and let you know what my current plans are. And hopefully we can work together on something. 52:53codeaholicYeah, I think I'm very much into Etsy. I think I would love to see Etsy be the prime blockchain for many things. I think it can and it will. So, I would love to work with you on this and, get really close to… How does this make Etsy grow and, more durable? 53:12Istora MandiriYeah. 53:12codeaholicAs a… as a main… as a main concern for me, too, so… Yeah, it's more… it's more Etsy, it's more, it's more of login, it's more of, nourishment, so I'm… I'm starting to perceive that Etsy is, It's like one of those gifts that keeps on giving, so… if we can make Etsy better while also shipping really cool stuff like this, That's a win. Win-win. 53:36Istora MandiriRight, right. And of course, being on-chain deployed to Etsy gets us More intra- interest in the protocol itself as well, so… Yeah. Looking forward to this, and thank you for sharing the thoughts. For joining this call. We are approaching the one hour mark. And… that's our typical… cut off. If there's any other topics people would like to talk about before we wrap up, then… Please do mention. 54:09codeaholicI just wanted to say thank you very much to you, to Justin, awesome talking with you guys, as always, and really excited for everybody who's listening. I am super excited about Etsy, super excited about Logtrees, super excited about Astora and the entire community, and oh yeah, and I forgot to mention. Logtrees is pre-alpha, version pre-alpha, so as you saw in the demo, like, it's functional, it's working, but it's very early, so it's going to rapidly improve. I build for a living, and… this means that I work a lot, but I'm gonna rapidly improve it, so it's already been rapidly improving, and you'll see more demo videos and all that on the YouTube channel, but just a heads up, if anybody ever tinkers with it, and you see some bugs. That's kind of expected since it's pre-alpha. But really excited for all of you, and I'll be around in the server, in the Discord server, in both of them, so please feel free to ask me any questions. 55:07Istora MandiriAlright, thanks, and if people are listening to this call, how can they find more information? 55:14codeaholicOh yeah, that's a great question. You can, you can contact me at danny at logtrees.com. And, my… Link… to my… my Twitter username is, SearsBell, so I will follow up with a message on the video when it gets uploaded with the links to these. 55:34Istora MandiriAwesome, thank you. 55:37codeaholicThank you. 55:38Istora MandiriOkay, well, it's been a very interesting episode. But different than normal. It's nice to have these, like, very… Creative things to talk about once in a while, and Yeah, hope to see you all Next time? The next call is in 2 weeks, on the 15th of May. You can join us, find us in the same place, same time. And until then… Yeah, hope you have a good couple weeks. Stay safe. Keep it classy. Take care, and goodbye. Alright.

Logtrees

Key Points Discussed

Preamble

Today’s Agenda

Introductions

ETC in the News

Pull Request Corner

ECIPs

core-geth

ethereumclassic.org

ETC Cooperative Development Update

Olympia Update

Last Call Recap

Agenda

Quantum Security ECIP

Extra Topics

AI Summary

Pull Request Corner and Olympia Update

Elysium as a Foil to Olympia

Log Trees, Log N, and the Carbon-Negative Blockchain Concept

Nourishment and Collaboration on a Shared Incentive System

ETC Cooperative Development Update

Action Items

Full Transcript