Key Points Discussed

• Graham introduced SaturnDEX, a decentralized order-book exchange on ETC rebuilt from scratch by his team and descended from the 2017 Saturn Network; it is production-ready at saturndex.org, with a desktop localhost app for permissionless, fully on-chain trading.
• Its signature feature is the advanced (multi-pair) order: a single deposit can be offered against up to 20 buy tokens at once and fills on whichever pair executes first, concentrating liquidity on a thin market.
• SaturnDEX charges a 0.25% maker fee plus a 0.05% protocol fee (0.3% max for a taker) and allocates 50% of its token supply to trade mining rewards for takers; the code is not yet open source, though an SDK is in progress.
• Istora presented ECIP-1130 “Bastion”, a minimal meta-ECIP bundling a Cancun/Prague/Osaka EIP subset, as a less controversial alternative to the Olympia bundle (ECIP-1121), and floated miner signalling via the block header to gauge fork support.
• A long discussion followed on fork legitimacy (hash power versus beliefs), the different attack surfaces of proof-of-work and proof-of-stake, and a friendly disagreement over whether AI agents will drive most ETC throughput within five years.

Full AI Summary and Transcript ↓

Preamble

Hello, and Welcome!

This community call is an open voice chat discussion about Ethereum Classic. Everyone is welcome.

The call will be published on YouTube. We kindly ask that discussion stays focused on ideas rather than individuals. Let’s keep it classy.

Find past episodes, transcripts, subscribe to calendar, and more at https://cc.ethereumclassic.org.

Today’s Agenda

• One Decade: Ten Years of ETC
• Saturn
• ECIP-1130 (Bastion)
• Miner Signalling
• Post-Quantum Security

Introductions

Quick round of introductions for everyone on the call, and if there’s anything you want to talk about.

ETC in the News

• The next block-reward reduction (the “Fifthening”) is expected around July 22, 2026 at block 25,000,001, cutting the reward from 2.048 to 1.6384 ETC under the 20%-every-two-years tapering schedule (KuCoin). It lands two days after ETC’s 10-year anniversary. Worth noting for the “One Decade” framing.
• The Olympia implementation discussion saw fresh activity on June 29 (ECIP-1111/1112/1121, Mordor testnet). The governance layer is live on testnet, with mainnet targeted for end of 2026. Note the scope overlap with the Bastion EIP bundle.

Agenda

One Decade: Ten Years of ETC

Ethereum Classic turns ten on July 20, 2026, marking a decade since the chain continued past the DAO hard fork at block 1,920,000. Quick takes on:

• What stands out from the first decade?
• What should the next decade prioritize?

Saturn

Saturn is a decentralized exchange for trading tokens on Ethereum Classic. Quick takes on:

• What is the current state of the app?
• What would help drive adoption and liquidity on ETC?

ECIP-1130 (Bastion)

ECIP-1130 is a draft Meta ECIP from Diego and Istora defining the Bastion hard fork, which brings a subset of Ethereum’s Cancun, Prague, and Osaka execution-layer EIPs to ETC. Quick takes on:

• What is the path from Draft to a target fork block?

Miner Signalling

Revisiting how miners signal support for changes on a proof-of-work network. Quick takes on:

• Is the current signalling process adequate?
• Should signalling be formalized, and if so, how?

Post-Quantum Security

Continuing the quantum-resistance discussion around ECIP-1122 (ML-DSA verification precompile). Quick takes on:

• Where does this sit relative to Bastion and other priorities?
• Should it be part of the next hard fork?

AI Summary

Recorded days before Ethereum Classic’s tenth anniversary, Call 56 opened with a guest presentation from Graham of SaturnDEX, a decentralized exchange on ETC, and a live demo of the app. It then turned into a wide-ranging conversation between Istora and Lunar on the newly named Bastion hard fork (ECIP-1130), miner signalling, the security trade-offs of proof-of-work versus proof-of-stake, and where value and activity on ETC might come from over the next decade. The One Decade, Saturn, Bastion, and miner-signalling agenda items were covered; the Fifthening and post-quantum security were only touched on in passing.

SaturnDEX: History and the Rebuild

The call opened with Graham recounting where SaturnDEX comes from.

• Details
  • Graham: SaturnDEX descends from Saturn Network, one of ETC’s first decentralized exchanges (circa 2017), which he says introduced the term “DEX” before Uniswap and hosted 100+ tokens on ETC around 2018 to 2019
  • Graham: The original founder abandoned the project around 2020, holding the treasury and never transferring it to the community, and community efforts to form a DAO and revive it led nowhere, leaving it effectively dead from 2023
  • Graham: He was an original Saturn Network investor with no ties to the old team; his new team rewrote the contracts, backend, and frontend from scratch, keeping the Saturn name as a tribute and rebranding to SaturnDEX
  • Graham: The product is production-ready on the web and as a desktop localhost app, which he stressed lets users keep trading permissionlessly even if the servers go down or face political pressure, since orders live on-chain rather than on a centralized server
• Conclusion
  • SaturnDEX is a clean-room rebuild of a historic ETC project, positioned around permissionless, self-hostable, fully on-chain trading

Fees, Tokens, and the DAO Question

Discussion moved to how the exchange charges fees and whether it has a token.

• Details
  • Graham: The fee is a 0.25% maker fee plus a 0.05% protocol fee, so a taker pays at most 0.3%; the protocol fee is charged in the native token and funds development and marketing
  • Graham: Unlike the old Saturn DAO token, SaturnDEX deliberately does not market its token as a DAO token, arguing Saturn Network already failed as a DAO and that most DAOs still rely on a centralized admin
  • Graham: The team is researching a mechanism to redirect protocol revenue back to token holders autonomously, without a centralized admin key, though voting rights for holders may be introduced later
  • Istora: Confirmed that the platform now takes a fixed fee per trade rather than relying on a token, in contrast to the old version
• Conclusion
  • The model favors a flat protocol fee and community-incentive tokenomics over formal DAO governance, which the team views as having failed the first time

Live Demo: Advanced Orders and Trade Mining

Graham shared his screen and walked through the app, including its signature feature.

• Details
  • Graham: The UI resembles a centralized exchange, runs against Ethereum and Ethereum Classic mainnets plus a Mordor testnet, and connects through a wallet such as Rabby
  • Graham: The standout feature is an advanced order where a single deposit of one token can be listed against up to 20 buy tokens at once (for example ETC against USDT, USDC, or wrapped BTC), appearing on multiple pairs and filling on whichever executes first
  • Istora and Lunar: Probed the mechanics, confirming it behaves like an OR across pairs, supports partial fills, and updates the remaining amount across all pairs simultaneously, which Istora noted is useful for bootstrapping liquidity on a thin market
  • Graham: Trade mining rewards takers (not makers) with SaturnDEX tokens in proportion to the protocol fee they pay, with 50% of the token supply allocated to it to widen the holder base
• Conclusion
  • The advanced multi-pair order and taker-focused trade mining are the app’s two distinguishing bets for concentrating liquidity and distributing the token widely

Architecture, Open Source, and the USC Stablecoin

Istora asked about the technical stack and an ETC stablecoin he spotted in the pairs.

• Details
  • Graham: Downloading the desktop app gives the full stack, but the codebase is not yet open source; an SDK for open-source development is being built, and the backend could be opened later depending on community involvement
  • Istora: Noted a USC token trading against ETC on mainnet and asked what backs it
  • Lunar: Identified USC as a stablecoin from Cody and the Olympia people, but said he did not know the details of its backing; SaturnDEX simply lists it by token address with no listing process
• Conclusion
  • The client is easy to run but closed-source for now, and the USC stablecoin’s backing was left as an open question for its creators

Cross-Chain Roadmap and Getting Involved

Graham outlined a phased plan to expand beyond ETC.

• Details
  • Graham: Phase 1 is multi-chain expansion across EVM chains (tested on BSC, Optimism, Polygon, and others); Phase 2 is integrating the native limit order with existing AMMs such as ETCswap to tap their liquidity
  • Graham: Phase 3 is cross-chain trading using hash-timelocked contracts (HTLCs), which he called old but still one of the best trustless cross-chain technologies, with a possible always-online merchant as a middleman to smooth the online-at-the-same-time requirement
  • Istora: Endorsed reusing proven older technology and making the middleman role permissionless and trust-minimized so anyone can run it for resilience
  • Graham: Invited people to the SaturnDEX Discord and X account; NFTs are not on the roadmap
• Conclusion
  • The roadmap prioritizes multi-chain reach and eventual trustless cross-chain swaps over new asset types, with community involvement invited via Discord

ECIP-1130 (Bastion) and the Next Hard Fork

Istora moved to announcements, leading with the newly named hard-fork proposal.

• Details
  • Istora: ECIP-1130 “Bastion” is a meta-ECIP from Diego and himself that bundles a minimal subset of Cancun, Prague, and Osaka execution-layer EIPs, without the more controversial pieces
  • Istora: He framed Bastion as an option and a less controversial alternative to Olympia (ECIP-1121), which also carries governance, treasury, and a 1559 redirect, and asked for review and feedback on the proposal
  • Lunar: Restated his standing view that any hard fork is inherently damaging, while acknowledging this one is small, and cautioned to watch carefully for consensus breakage
  • Istora: Agreed hard forks should be avoided when possible, but argued there is a balance against long-term maintenance and keeping up with evolving standards (citing EIP-1559 wallet support) until ETC can define standards itself
• Conclusion
  • Bastion is offered as a minimal, lower-risk EIP bundle for the community to weigh against Olympia, with both participants agreeing hard forks warrant caution

Miner Signalling, Legitimacy, and Who Decides

The conversation broadened into how contentious upgrades should be resolved.

• Details
  • Istora: Floated a non-committal miner signalling scheme using the block header’s extra-data field (analogous to Bitcoin’s user-activated soft forks) to let miners cryptographically signal which side of a future upgrade they would mine
  • Lunar: Pushed back that ETC could simply run an on-chain vote, and that legitimacy is not just miner hash power or economic power but ultimately the beliefs of many interested parties (users, holders, developers)
  • Istora: Positioned signalling as purely additional information (for example, if 99% of hash rate would not mine a fork) rather than a binding vote, and noted a shared interest in avoiding a chain split, with its replay-attack and delisting risks
  • Lunar: Argued you cannot convince a committed group through displays of force, and that both chains would issue tokens and let the market decide which is legitimate
• Conclusion
  • Both saw signalling as useful information but not decisive; legitimacy was framed as converging on the beliefs of participants rather than raw hash power

Proof-of-Work, Proof-of-Stake, and 51% Attacks

A deeper aside compared the security models of the two consensus mechanisms.

• Details
  • Istora: Argued that on proof-of-work the heaviest chain is what the protocol treats as correct, so miners effectively control the network; Lunar countered that it also depends on users agreeing to use the chain
  • Both: Agreed a sudden loss of hash rate (for example 99% of Bitcoin miners moving to BCH) would stall block production for days via the difficulty adjustment, and that mining-pool concentration is a more realistic centralization concern than hardware
  • Istora and Lunar: Contrasted a proof-of-work 51% attack (reorgs and delayed inclusion, but not permanent) with proof-of-stake, which Lunar likened to a self-reinforcing “council of elders” oligarchy that can rewrite the protocol
  • Istora: Mentioned he is about to read the book Defending Bitcoin, whose analysis of theoretical attacks he expects to apply largely to ETC as well
• Conclusion
  • Both treated proof-of-work’s limited attack surface as a core advantage over proof-of-stake, while acknowledging pool centralization and miner sell pressure as real, ongoing risks

AI Agents, Predictions, and NourishMint

The call closed on predictions about ETC’s next decade and a project preview.

• Details
  • Istora: Suggested ETC should aim to attract the attention of AI agents rather than compete for scarce human attention against algorithmic feeds
  • Lunar: Disagreed, calling agentic payments a buzzword-driven “LARP” and arguing value will flow to the most secure chain over time regardless; the two logged competing five-year predictions on whether agents (specifically LLMs) will drive most on-chain ETC activity
  • Lunar: Predicted more DeFi and apps on ETC within a year, offering to copy-paste contracts onto ETC himself if no one else does
  • Istora: Previewed NourishMint, a beta app for proving contributions to ETC and rewarding participants, which may evolve into a jobs board for agents, and invited beta testers
• Conclusion
  • The hosts logged an on-the-record disagreement about AI agents to revisit in a year and five years, and Istora invited the community to help test NourishMint

Action Items

• Community: Review and give feedback on ECIP-1130 “Bastion” and weigh it against the Olympia bundle
• Community: Try SaturnDEX on ETC mainnet or the Mordor testnet, and join its Discord and X to get involved
• Istora / developers: Explore a non-committal miner-signalling mechanism (block-header extra-data) as additional information for gauging fork support
• Istora: Onboard beta testers for NourishMint; join the green room an hour early on the next call
• All: Next call is in two weeks, same time and place, Ethereum Classic Community Call 57

Full Transcript

0:03Welcome and introductions

0:03IstoraHello and welcome to Ethereum Classic Community Call number 56. Today is Friday, July 10th, 2026. Ethereum Classic Community Calls is a voice chat discussion about Ethereum Classic, and The call will be published to YouTube, so we kindly ask that discussion stays focused on ideas rather than individuals, and let's keep it classy. Find past episodes, transcripts, subscribe to the calendar, and more at cc.ethereumclassic.org. In this episode, we have a special guest, representing SaturnDEX, which is a name that some ETC people might be familiar with. But, we have an update from the SaturnDEX team about a new project launch. So, we have… Graham from SaturnDEX with us on the call. Hi, Graham. 0:52GrahamHi, hello Istora. Thanks for your introduction. Thanks for inviting me to today's. 1:00IstoraYeah, thanks for joining. We also have Lunar on the call. 1:06LunarHello, nice to be with you guys. Thank you. 1:09IstoraThank you for joining once again. So… For people that are… somewhat familiar with the ETC ecosystem, they may have heard Saturn. as a network, Saturn network, I believe. And I heard about it before, but I'm not really super familiar with what it was. So, I think to kick this discussion off. And… Graham, maybe you can talk about a little bit of the history behind Saturn Network and how it became what it is today, which is SaturnDEX, and maybe you can explain your new product and Yeah, introduce it to the, to the listeners.

1:52Saturn Network's history and the SaturnDEX rebuild

1:52GrahamOkay. Let me start to introduce about us. We are a small team. We built SaturnDEX. And SaturnDEX was original from the Saturn Network. As you may already know, Saturn Network. was, significant projects about 2017. And Saturn network was, One of the first. a decentralized exchange that introduced the term "DEX" in this industry. It's a, even… Before Uniswap, when it introduced the term "DEX", And, About ETC, Saturn Network, was, deployed first on ETC chain. However, its reason is to expand multi-chain, and its contract is compatible with On EVM chains. And, as I remember, around 2018 and 2019, that period, there were about more than 100 of tokens deployed on ETC chain, thanks to the… the platform of Saturn Network. However, about 2020. The old founder, Noorong, he abandoned the project. He left, without any notice. And in this, community, many. Difficulty to continue the projects because, Because the old founder, he holds the MEK, he holds the treasury, and no transfer, without transfer to the community. And about 2020 to 2023, about 3 years, the community. Did try… did try some effort to revise the project. I remember that they… They go into form to form the contract or to. To establish a DAO mechanism. However, the… the discussion… led to nowhere. And… And the project was really You can say that it's dead since 2023 until now. So, we sat on this. Personally, I was just one of the original Saturn Network investors. I had no, to be clear, that I had no relationship with the old founder and the old team. I was just one of the Original investor and later after Saturn Network. become… Inactive and hibernated. I… I formed a small team, and we determined to build the project from scratch. We write the contract, we write the backend and frontend codebase, everything. Review. However, we still use the name Saturn because we love, we love this project. We believe in this reason and we want to. Tribute. the reason, the contribution of the old founder. That's why we keep using the name, and we rebrand it to be SaturnDEX, as you see nowadays. From last year, 2025, we start building. We focus on developing the product. The exchange? However, we have little resource, and we have zero marketing. That's why you didn't hear about us. And thanks to the effort of the team, we have completed Developing of the product. It's already production ready. You can start using it on the web page. Or even that you can use, install the desktop localhost. On your own machine, so… And because, you can, because we emphasize the importance of being local host, so the user can can trade on their own, without relying on any centralized server, without relying on any domain. So, in the future. if the server down or if some political enforcement to the project, and the end user like you and me can still use the product, can still trade as long as you have the internet. So that is important for us. It's the core… it's the core value of the crypto asset, because we emphasize the permissionless and, the decentralized aspect of the crypto. And to talk about the product feature, SaturnDEX continues to be an order-book style DEX. A native… Limit order. So you can create order, update your order, cancel your order. And, your alert will be totally, Totally host on-chain. There is no centralized server to host the order book, so everything trading, every trading happens on-chain, 100%. So, only the backend code and the frontend is hosted in the VPS. However, if you run our desktop localhost app. You own, you own your code base, you own the everything on your own machine. So no single point of failure. And about the fee structure, we are talking about the, If you see that from our website, we talked about the fair distribution of incentive. We see that. We want, we want to, we want to, maintain the participant of our project, like, the maker, the taker, and, the project owner. So, we introduced the maker fee, which is, 0.25% to the maker who creates the order and, the taker fee. It's, porn. 3%. In order for the taker to execute an existing order from the maker and so the remaining. 0.05% is for the protocol fee. This protocol fee will be charged for the revenue of the SaturnDEX project, and we use this, Revenue to keep developing the product and to do some marketing stuff.

9:42Fees, tokens, and the DAO question

9:42IstoraMmhm. Is this… does the fee go to a token, or is that just a direct, I guess, treasury or wallet that… It's controlled by the platform. 9:56GrahamWe charge the fee in the native token only, so if you, if you trade, if you trade ERC20 or ERC223 token, you… that, if you trade two ERC tokens together, you won't pay the protocol fee. So you only pay the maker fee if you are a taker. Okay, so the taker pays the maker fee to the maker, and pays the protocol fee in terms of native token to the project. Okay. 10:36IstoraOkay. So previously, the old version of Saturn had a token, if I understand, but the DEX that you're building now, there's no token for the platform itself, it's just a fixed fee per trade. 10:49GrahamYeah, the old, the oldest Saturn network, they have their token, which is the Saturn DAO token. It was the DAO token because, it… Its utility is for voting, it's for the community to take ownership of the project. However, when we deploy SaturnDEX, we want to change that. We don't see the practical usage of the DAO token, because We see that Saturn network already failed as a DAO. The community cannot help. decision, something that, to rewrite the project. So the DAO is really not practical. So, however, we still believe that the community has an important role in any project. So we introduced the new token for the SaturnDEX. This token, we don't market it to be a DAO token. We tag community incentive to be the centric of the token and to talk about the. The long-term sustainable… sustainability and autonomous operation that we… that we mentioned in our website. We are researching some mechanism to reintegrate the revenue of the project back into the token holder of the SaturnDEX. In some kind of autonomous, operation, instead of relying on a centralized directory. And you see that most DAO projects out there, they rely on a centralized admin case to control the directory. So that was not really decentralized, even though they call themselves a DAO or something like that. And we don't want to follow that path. We want to follow and to research on a new mechanism that That will, redirect the incentive back to the token holder without relying on any centralized admin. Yeah. So, continue… to continue on the product features, we, as I mentioned, that we have the web-based. As you can log in now to saturndex.org, you can already connect wallet to and start listing your token and and trading. Let me talk about listing the token. The DEX is totally open and free for listing your own token. You can just register your token on our public GitHub account, so your token will be available and will be visible on SaturnDEX. However, listing is not mandatory. You can trade any existing token or On the… on the chain, right now. However, if you trade an unregistered token, the token information will not be visible on the exchange, so you won't see the logo, you won't see the info. However, you can still trade. Okay? So, that was about token listing. And, we also have, a desktop localhost, and we also deploy the mobile UI. So, when you log in to saturndex.org on your mobile phone. You can see a mobile-friendly UI that you can start using and trading. Directly from your mobile. And, this, I'm going to talk about, one of our signature feature is about the advanced order. this is our… I think that this is our signature feature, because, I don't… I don't see any other desk, have this feature. So, let me go brief. Normally, when you create an order on an order book. You selling 1 token to buy another token, right? 15:28IstoraMmh. 15:28GrahamSo, we introduced a mechanism that you can create an advance order. For example, you sell one token, like ETC, and to buy, multiple Another token, lag. USDT, USDC or Wrapped Bitcoin. Yeah, in the same order, in a unit order. So this is a feature that we utilize in the very future of the buy tokens. So in the same order, you can. Deposit… you can deposit only one time of your selling token, and you can… Like advertise to buy multiple other buy tokens, so your order will appear on. multiple trading pairs on our exchange. So, you increase your possibility that your order will be visible to as many As many traders as possible and your order will be. Mostly to be filled by a lot more takers, ok. 16:42IstoraRight, so you increase liquidity basically for the whole system. 16:47GrahamYeah, so it's a very helpful feature, I think. 16:53IstoraThat's a really cool idea. I've never seen that on other Exchanges, that's quite interesting, yeah. And especially for a, for bootstrapping an exchange with low liquidity, this is like super useful if there's If you just want to sell into any token, right? 17:14GrahamYeah, any token, any ERC20 or ERC223 token that's compatible with the SaturnDEX. 17:26IstoraOkay. 17:28GrahamYeah. If you can, I can demo the order for you. But maybe not for this call, it depends on you.

17:42Live demo: advanced orders and trade mining

17:42IstoraSorry, can you repeat that? 17:44GrahamI mean that, would you like me to… To demo the trading on current, right now, for you to see how it works. 17:57IstoraDo you have the video? Are you going to share a screen? 18:02GrahamI can share the screen now. 18:04IstoraOkay, sure. 18:08GrahamOkay, wait a minute. Share. Let me find the screen to share as well. Yes. Where is the… where is the share button? 18:30IstoraOn Zoom, it's at the bottom of the screen. 18:34GrahamI see, no, yeah. Okay, you're seeing much better. 18:51IstoraOkay. I got it. 18:52GrahamOkay, so I installed Rabby wallet. Okay, you can connect the Rabby wallet. Okay, so… By logging in the app.saturndex.org, we already have two main exchanges here, Ethereum and Ethereum Classic. And we also deployed the Mordor testnet for the Ethereum Classic. So, you can use the testnet to trade. Without… without having to… To use the real money. Okay, for example, I can… I can pick a pair here. Okay. Okay, I can see all the active pairs. Active pairs mean that the pairs that currently have active order, open orders, okay? I can't find the rate and the pay for me. So, next time… Yeah, you have to sign a message here. So next time, I can just log in and see the first tabs to see all my favorite pets. Okay, you with me? Okay, when I click on the pair, the order book appears. So, you can see that the UI is really, comparable to most of the other centralized desks, sorry, centralized exchanges. Okay, when, for example, when I see, I click on an order here, Yes. The trading panel appeared the information of the Of the order that I clicked, okay, so you can… I can switch the order. And then, if I want to fill the order. That means that I am performing as a taker here. I can fill the order. Wait a bit, and then try the transaction. And that order will get filled. Yes. Because, everything happened on-chain, so… Okay, that's that order filled now. Everything happens on chain, so every transaction has to pay the gas fee, and you have to pay, you have to wait a few seconds for the order to get filled, to get executed. Okay, so now let me intro the… let me demo the month… the advance order that I was just talked about. You can… you can use the new order panel here. Like… I have 1.4 ETC here. I can sell 1.0.5 ETC. I am in the pair ETC USDT. I can… put in the price that I want to sell my ETC, so it calculates the amount that I will get, and then I can add more buy tokens that I I want, for example, these are the amounts, okay? Okay, just to… I can input the price for each pair. And then… When I… Create this order. This advance order will appear in three different trading pairs, the ETC, USDT, ETC MDET and ETC MDA II. 23. Okay. Just confirm it. Wait a few seconds, okay? That's good. Okay. So, it appears here the order that we just created. 1,000 price for ETC per USDT. And then, it… I. If I switch to my another pair, ETC, MD, ET, right? I don't remember. It's there, the order, the same order. The same order appear on multiple trading pairs. So it gets the increase the chance that your order will get filled by different sets of the traders. And then I can… I can manage my order here, you can say that, okay, so I have one active order. Here. 23:36LunarSure. 23:37GrahamOr the ID that I just created. I can update. I can update the price. 1,000 to 1,100. Right here. And then I can update the order. Sorry. 23:51LunarIs this like an AND order or an OR order? Like, do you have to… is it all the tokens, or… I assume it's, like, only one token. Like, you can supply either token you want to fill the order, yeah? 24:06GrahamThe maximum is 20 tokens. I can add as many buy tokens up to 20. 24:13LunarAnd as soon as one is filled, then the order is filled. Like, as soon… it's like OR. You supply one of the tokens. 24:21GrahamI mean, yes, as long as one pair is filled, the token will also fill on the other pair and disappear from the other pairs. 24:35LunarAnd if you have, like, a partial fill, how does that work? Like, it gets, it gets partially remo Yes, we have. 24:41GrahamYeah, partially. Let me switch to another account. Yes. Let me show you how to fill it, okay? So, this is the order that I just created, right? So, I will… For you. 20% of it. Okay. So you can see the remaining sales amount of my order will get deducted the amount that I trade, I fill it. So it's 0.4 now. And when I switched to the other pairs. For example, ETC/UTC, you can see that order also 0.4 remaining amount of the order. So it updated at the same time for all pairs. 25:48LunarGotcha, gotch. 25:51GrahamOkay, so… Yeah, another thing that about, yeah, trade mining, trade mining here. Trade mining is an incentive mechanism to, to reward the… the trader… the trader, for example, the taker, who… who pay the protocol fee to the project to make the trade. So we reward them by giving them an amount of Saturn token. in return, In proportion to the protocol fee that they pay to the project. by trading. So you can see that I just pay a small amount of ETC for making this trade. I get The reward of a small amount of Saturn token. So we, this leads us to the tokenomic topic. We. We allocate 50% of our tokenomics for trade mining. 50% is a big amount. That's why we say that we emphasize on the benefit of the community because the taker, it's the real user of the product, and they should, we want to, incentivize them, we want to keep And maintain the taker, as well as the other user. To stay with our project so that we use our 50% of tokenomics for that. 27:37IstoraMmhm. 27:38GrahamHey, no. 27:39IstoraCould you explain, could I ask you to explain exactly how the trade mining works? Is that like. A replay fee, or is it something… Just like a fixed. reward. 27:55GrahamYeah, the fee… the fee can be adjustable, by… by the admin. It was… it was, It was justified on-chain, so every transaction on-chain will get a fixed amount of, SaturnDEX token in reward. However, the fee… the ratio of the fee can be adjust… adjustable, depending on the voting… the voting of the community. So, although we… we don't… without marketing us to be a DAO token, but we will eventually introduce some voting rights for the token holder, because we want to hear your voice, we want to hear the community idea. In some terms, like the trading fee, the trading ratio, etc, yeah. 28:55IstoraSo the trade mining is basically like a, an incentive for people to be making. market making. In some way? Yeah. Okay. 29:06GrahamNot really market making, but for the taker. 29:11IstoraThe taker. 29:12GrahamYeah, the taker. pay the… I see. Yeah. The market, the market, the market making, or the market, they already get the maker fee. 0.25% of the transaction amount. So, we were, we, so we won't, reward them in terms of the trade mining. Instead, we reward the taker for the trade mining. 29:41IstoraOkay. 29:46GrahamAnd We, if you log in our docs, you can see. The ratio of the current trade mining. 10 minutes. You still see my screen, right? 30:03IstoraYep. 30:04GrahamOkay? So, this is the current ratio of trade mining. for every… for, the ratio is, for every ETC that the takers spend for trading, they get 50 Saturn That's doctored on ETC in River. The ratio changes: for every ETH. token that they spent, they get 10,000 SaturnDEX token on Ethereum. 30:37IstoraOkay. 30:43LunarCan I ask, how are you guys… how are you guys planning to profit if… if the maker… if the maker's getting the fee from the trade and… and the, the takers getting Saturn tokens, what's left for you. 30:56GrahamWe took the protocol fee, .05. The taker pays the protocol fee for trading. And this fee will be taken for the project. This is the main revenue of the project. Okay, so the maximum fee that the taker spends will be 0.3%. Basically. 31:26LunarOkay. Got it, yeah. 31:30GrahamAnd, talk about the trade mining. We envision it's not just, a reward mechanism for the taker. And more importantly, we see it as a main way for us to distribute the SaturnDEX token to the to the holder, to the community, because we believe that this decentralized project. must have a decentralized community, as well as decentralized token holders. We cannot be decentralized if our token Was, were hold by a small group of people. You know what I mean? Yeah. That's why, that's why we emphasize the trade mining 50% of the tokenomics. It's very important to scale our token holder base. 32:33IstoraUnderstood. Were there any things that you wanted to demo or can I jump into some questions? 32:42GrahamI think, I think that I want, I, let me, let me show you how you can. Download the desktop app here. When you can… when you log in the home page, okay, you can download the app. Like for Linux, Windows, and Mac. Okay. We recommend you to use our desktop app, because this is the best way to trade permissionless without relying on the server, so… The desktop app is really the same. the same, front end with the web host. However, you will use the… Let's wait a few seconds and we'll start the app here. Okay. It will always fit the shared screen to my app. Okay, can you see my… my screen here. 34:02IstoraYep, I see the… 34:04GrahamOkay, so this is the desktop app. I just opened it. I already installed it. So, from this desktop app, you can… Ahhh… Click on the setting. You can use your preferred RPC URL. As you like. Yes. And also for the testnet. Okay. You can enable… You can enable or disable a particular chain. Okay. And then you can see a panel. Of the sync status of the chain, like here. Yep. And then, you, when you click on the start trading. It will open the localhost port on your browser. So, yeah. On your browser here, something like… Something like, something like, the UI that I just demoed you. Okay, so you can… yeah, something like that. 35:22IstoraAwesome. 35:25GrahamOkay. Then it stops. 35:27IstoraSo. 35:28Grahamdemo, and I want to show you.

35:32Architecture, open source, and the USC stablecoin

35:32IstoraYeah, thank you for showing us that. I was wondering about the, if you go into some of the technical details of the architecture, and how does the backend work alongside the frontend and the smart contracts? Like. I'm assuming that if you download the app, you get the full stack. But, is it open source? Can I clone it? Can I remix it? What's the status of the… The technical side, the code base. 36:03GrahamCurrently, the codebase is not open-source yet. However, we are developing an SDK for open-source development. And… And after that, it will depend on the status of the development and the community… community involvement, we… we can… we can open shop the whole codebase of the backend as well. However, it… it still depends on how the community involvement, how the project development status, yeah. 36:41IstoraCool. I noticed on the, on the trading pairs, one of, on mainnet you have ETC, of course, and USC token. 36:57GrahamCan I ask? Yeah. 36:58IstoraIs this a stable coin? 37:03Grahamthe ETC and USC. The USC is the stablecoin of the… 37:09LunarThat's Cody. They worked on that. The Olympia people. I think that they're stable. Yeah. 37:20GrahamYeah, that's the USC stable on ETC. We just, use their token address, and then it appears on our desk that No listing at all, as I mentioned. 37:41IstoraCool. Do you know much of the background, Lunar or SaturnDEX? Like, how is this… This stablecoin. 37:54LunarOh, I don't know too much about the stablecoin. I think I bought some of it. It works fine. You know, there's a I don't know. I don't know. I'm I think they… Yeah, I don't know, you have to really ask them how their stablecoin structure… I assume it's like any other stablecoin, you know, they have some… They have some supply. In a bank account somewhere, or it's backed by other stables. No.

38:32Cross-chain roadmap and getting involved

38:32IstoraOkay, and just before this call, we were talking about potential Things that might happen in the future, especially with regards to cross-chain. Graham, did you have any… Ideas for the future about how. Your DEX could be… Expanded to have more than just ETC and potentially. Cross-chain. Trading or bridges. 39:00GrahamYeah, we, when we deploy, when we, design the contract and the code base, we emphasize to the ability to expand multi-chain, as long as the chain is EVM compatible. So, when we testing, when we testing, we already deploy on the testnet of of all the main blockchains like BSC, Optimism, Polygon, ETC. So they work really well. So I think our codebase are ready to expand multi-chain. And that was in our current phase one. And for Phase 2, we are researching on The way to interact our native limit order with. the other existing AMM. That's out there. For example, on ETC, we have ETCswap. And… This will help us to bring the native limit order feature to the AMM. Style of trading. It will also help us to integrate the existing liquidity of the industry. And for phase 3, we will move to the cross-chain trading. That's where we aim to use the hash-timelocked contract (HTLC) technology to To facilitate the ability to do the cross-chain transaction. And although we know that the… the hash-timelock technology… Was quite old now, however. It's still… we believe that it's still one of the best. Decentralized, cross-chain, technology. Nowadays, so we all know that the technology has some limit like it requires. Maker and taker to be online at the same time. So we know that and we will find some solution like when you see on some. centralized exchange, the P2P trading mechanism, they have some kind of merchant, like a middleman merchant. So, we… We have the idea to utilize the merchant as a central middleman. Hope will always be online to facilitate the trading of the user that want to. swap tokens cross-chain. So that was some idea, and we are researching on the technical Aspect, to make it come to be true. Okay, that's it for the cross-chain. 42:29IstoraYeah, awesome. I'm a fan of these… even though they're older technologies, they're proven and they work. And with a bit of tweaking, I think you can definitely… Make them a lot more… User-friendly? And having the ability to relay, or just having a… A middleman, as you say, but not with any kind of trust. Requirements? But also, like, making it… Deploying it in a decentralized way so anyone can become the middleman. 43:00GrahamYes. 43:01Istoraadditional. Right. Resilience. Yeah. 43:05GrahamThe technology is decentralized and it's trustless. However, we can utilize the incentive economic mechanism to make it more user friendly. 43:23IstoraDo you have any plans to integrate NFTs? Or is this just for, fungible… tokens. 43:33GrahamNot right now, yeah. It's not in the roadmap right now. 43:46IstoraOkay. And, Finally, I guess, for someone… who's listening in the ETC community, what would be the easiest way for them to get started and Contact you, maybe, or get involved in the project in some way? 44:03GrahamYeah, you're asking me what, sorry? 44:06IstoraHow can people get involved in the project in SaturnDEX? 44:11GrahamWe have a Discord server for SaturnDEX, so I see some of the ETC community members already joined us, so you're very welcome to join us for further discussion. We only have a few members here, but we are happy to welcome everyone joining. And you can also log in our homepage. You can see our X account and X and Discord are two of our main social accounts now. And, for… for start trading, you can already, trade in the tokens on the mainnet. However, if you're not ready to trade on mainnet, you can also trade on the testnet if you want, yeah. 45:05IstoraWell, right now it's pretty inexpensive to Make transactions on mainnet, so… It seems like Testnet is… is good, but, Why not just do it on mainnet at this The cost of transactions is extremely low. 45:23GrahamYep. And we are, we are having a plan to do some marketing, like, we will host, a blog page, and we will write some blogs to introduce our project, and… host it and, publish it on Medium and other platforms, so we hope that it will reach more audience from the ETC chain and the other communities. 45:56IstoraAwesome. Well, if you're listening to this call and you're interested in following the progress, you can reach out and follow saturndex.org. And I'll put a link in the YouTube video and on the call. notes for people to follow up if they'd like to, and I'm guessing they can also find you in… the ETC Discord, as well as the SaturnDEX Discord, so… Please follow up with Graham if you're interested. 46:26GrahamYeah, take care. 46:29IstoraThanks, Graham. Lunar, did you have any questions that you wanted to ask Graham? 46:34LunarI don't have any more questions, but thank you for building on ETC and continue. I hope you guys have success. 46:46GrahamThank you. Thank you, Lunar. 46:50IstoraYes, of course, it's always good to see new projects on ETC, and… we were mentioning before the call that, like, it's nice that not every project is just a copy-paste of something that exists already on Ethereum mainnet. I mean, there are a lot of easy wins to be made there, but having a completely parallel ecosystem is… is quite nice, and getting to experiment without any of the… the trodden path assumptions that exist on Ethereum mainnet is one of the unique things that you have in ETC, and it's a… it's a proper green field. In more ways than one. 47:20LunarYeah, it's like a fresh start. You can throw away all the mistakes. 47:30IstoraYep, I'm looking forward to playing with SaturnDEX, and hopefully there's more tokens and more liquidity and more… Trades to be made on that, on that platform. So, I'll keep an eye on that and, Yeah, I really wish you success in the continued development of this project. 47:49GrahamThank you, thank you, and I also hope that we can, We can iterate better to have a more relationship and involvement between the two communities in the future.

48:04ECIP-1130 (Bastion) and the next hard fork

48:04IstoraFor sure. Thank you. So, I wanted to just make a few quick announcements on the call, and then maybe we can get into some more. Theoretical things, about… How we can move forward in ETC in general, So, this week, a new ECIP was… Announced? That we talked about on previous calls. And it now has a name, which is Bastion. So, the Bastion is ECIP-1130, which is a meta-ECIP from Diego and myself. which brings together a subset of the EIPs that were discussed on previous calls. Bring it up to speed with Cancun, Prague, and Osaka execution layer. And… I'm not gonna go too much into exactly what those EIPs are, you can check back on previous calls. But basically, this is… Our idea of… what the next hard fork could be for Ethereum Classic. I'm not saying It has to be this, but this is. An option, and this is basically… The alternative to 1121. Which is called Olympia. Olympia includes a bunch of EIPs, but also the somewhat controversial Governance and Treasury and 1559 redirect system. So, in contrast to Olympia. 1130 Bastion is a very minimal EIP bundle without any of the extra potentially controversial stuff. So we think this might be An option. For a less controversial hard fork. of EIPs that simply improve the functionality of the network, and Again, not necessarily having to be the way forward, but an option for the community to consider. So, that's out there now, and please review 1130 if you have any feedback. It'd be great to be involved in that discussion. 50:13LunarI guess, I guess my comment on this would be, like, same as always, you know, any sort of hard fork is bad, is damaging, but I think the best way to convince you guys is just, you know, this one, this one's quite small, very minimal, very, But I think the best way to convince you guys is just, like, you know, go crazy, and when you notice, you know, the hard forks start breaking, or, like, the consensus start breaking, it's like, be careful, be careful, there's danger ahead. Yeah, I mean, it all seems, it all seems good. 50:43IstoraYeah, and we have talked about this many times, well, a few times, and I do agree with the sentiment for sure, and think that Hard fault should be avoided. When possible. But there is always a balance to be made between when something is, Necessary in terms of long-term maintenance and long-term stability of the network versus What's gonna be potentially, like. Wing clipping the network. An example of that is, like, I mean, take 1559 itself. It could be the case that in the future, wallets just stop supporting the old standard. And unless ETC is already in the position where a lot of wallets support it. And hopefully that is the case. I definitely think that the The dynamic of when we should hard fork changes massively if we do have a… Terminal velocity. But we're not quite there yet, so… It's really about, like, how to ensure long-term stability of the network, and that might mean ensuring that we keep up with some of these standards that are evolving. Until we get to define the standards ourself. 51:59LunarThat's… that's a… that's a good point, yeah. Yeah, I do think… I do think we're on the uptrend, but I don't know, who knows, like, I Like, you know, we're celebrate, we're celebrating, you know, ETC 10 years, on this, on this podcast. 52:15IstoraWell, maybe it's technically like in a couple of weeks, but. 52:20LunarOh yeah, sure. But look, I'm not sure if ETH will be around in the same way 10 years from now, but I think ETC actually has a much longer lifespan because of the choices we made. So. 52:38IstoraYeah, I totally agree. 52:39LunarIt could be, like, we could be starting on the uptrend now, but who knows how long it'll take. It could take as much as, like, 10 years. For like flipping to occur so. I think, I think it is. We'll.

52:55Miner signalling, legitimacy, and who decides

52:55IstoraThese systems are supposed to be slow and methodical. It's the whole tortoise and the hare. like, fable. In practice. But one of the things that, An idea was brought up recently about How we might… Try and solve the current contention. With regards to which path is taken. Between Bastion and Olympia And… It would be possible to implement some kind of miner signaling system. similar to how user-activated soft forks worked on Ethereum? Sorry, on Bitcoin? And that would mean, like, using the extra arguments part of the block header on Ethereum Classic to allow miners to basically vote and signal which side of A future upgrade, they would prefer. And this would be completely non-committal, but it would give, like. Cryptographic proof that one side or the other. Would be supported or at least signaled to be supported by miners. So. 54:04LunarWell, we… you know, it's… we don't… that's like a… that's like a Bitcoin thing. We have… we have, like, normal addresses. We could just, like, set up, like, an on-chain vote or something like that, like, that's fine, like. 54:17IstoraYeah. 54:17LunarYou know. 54:17IstoraReally. 54:18LunarWe are Turing complete, like, we can do everything, like, no. 54:22IstoraThe thing with the on-chain vote is that. How do you structure it? Like. Are you voting by… 54:30LunarIt's not just miners, right? Everyone that has TVL on the chain or everyone that's interested. Because it's more, like, there's a bunch of interested parties, like, it's users. Like, you know, which chain is legitimate? That comes down to, like, beliefs at the end of the day. It's not just, like, miner hash power or whatever. Like that comes down to, or it's not just like economic power. Eventually those things converge, but it comes down to, like, the beliefs of the participants, I think. I agree. 55:03IstoraThe reason I said, like, it's non-committal is purely, it's like additional information. It's just signaling, and it It's… It's just, like, an additional… piece of information that developers and the community can take on board. And if miners are saying like 99% of them in hash rate are not going to mine a certain fork, then that might make it clear that fork is not worth pursuing and implementing. 55:30LunarWow. 55:30Istorait might… 55:31LunarOkay. 55:31IstoraThat one. 55:32LunarThat's not what happened with us. That's not what happened with ETC. I think, you know, these guys are quite stubborn. I think they'll… I think they're gonna go But, like, the thing is, like, there's no… there's nothing, you know, if they're… if they're really committed to it, there's nothing there to discuss. Like, you know, you get… you get tokens on both chains, and you get to decide which… which one you like more. They have to make their case why theirs is legitimate and they have to make like a strong case for people to believe in it. 56:03IstoraDo you think, do. 56:04LunarI think it's beneficial. Worst case scenario, the worst case scenario isn't even that bad. Okay. 56:11IstoraSorry. 56:12LunarI… at one point, you know, there was a concern that maybe the… what we call the original chain wouldn't survive, and that was quite bad. But that's… it's pretty clear that's not gonna happen anymore, so whatever happens, it's like, you know… We wish them the best. We wish that they stay here, but we also wish them the best. 56:37IstoraThe concern is that… It might cause economic, or… Like, it might cause people to… lose money, basically. There's replay attack concerns, there's exchanges delisting, and it seems it's in everyone's interest to try and resolve this without doing a chain split. Like, all things being equal, it's definitely better to not do a chain split, if we can avoid it. And… If this kind of system helps to avoid that, then maybe it's a good idea. I'm not sure. Whether they'll listen or not is another thing. 57:14LunarYeah, I agree. But the only way to do that is you can't convince them through basically displays of force or whatever. If you say, oh, 99% of miners disagree, it's just like — I don't know, like, that's not particularly convincing. You have to, like, appeal to, appeal to them, you know? It's like, I, like, I prefer. But, it's… Well, I don't know if they're very stubborn about, like, including… I think the only way is to, like, actually, like, speak to them and see what they say, but I don't think… they're pretty clear, like, you know, it doesn't matter how many community members say, no, don't do it, don't do it, like, that's just… they're gonna go through with it. They've invested too much, they're gonna go through with it anyway, so… Okay. Oh, we'll see, we'll see. 58:11IstoraWe will see. 58:15LunarYeah, I think in the long term, in the very long term, we're talking maybe 100 years from now or something like that. There's some movement, like, you know, every sort of structure becomes too entrenched. Too entrenched. And there's, there'll be some movement like this that actually, like, has some potential. 58:36IstoraCould you explain. 58:37LunarBut… So, like, there's, in any sort of system, eventually, like, the powers get too entrenched, and there's something that goes wrong, there's, you know. It's like the… in sort of like, let's say, the American system, you say, oh, you know, that's great, there's so many immigrants coming in. And we'll take the best from every country, and so on and so forth, and we're, you know, a nation of refugees or whatever. But you take that to its logical conclusion, where it's just like everyone becomes an American, and maybe that's the end. That's the end of America. Or… or you take… you take the… the Ethereum, you take the Ethereum, like, sort of ETH community to its… to its logical conclusion, where it's just like… You know, the stakers control the entire network. And it's just like a, it's just like a cartel of these staking networks. And they basically like, it's basically just become a centralized entity. And so something like that, you know, maybe in 100 years, maybe in 1000 years, maybe in 10,000 years. Something like that could happen to Ethereum Classic, and then our virtue, like, it all depends on whether we'll be virtuous enough at that point, you know, our descendants or whatever, to basically forestall the inevitable and just, like, remember the founding principles. To keep going. And so it's like…

1:00:07Do miners control the network? PoW vs PoS

1:00:07IstoraDo you… My… I feel like I should just say that, like, ultimately the miners. In control of the network. Like, by definition, on a proof-of-work network. 1:00:25LunarNo, they're not, they're not. What do you mean? Like, be specific, be specific, 1:00:33IstoraThe chain with the heaviest The heaviest chain, which is what the protocol determines to be The one that is… Shall we say correct? Unless there's a hard fork, which is different, but assuming. 1:00:51LunarRight. Okay. I thought you were meaning, like, the hash power determines legitimacy, like, if all the miners move to BCH. you know, BCH… Would it flip Bitcoin? I don' Or would it's hard to say, but. 1:01:08IstoraI think it would, I think it would. 1:01:10LunarIf all the miners moved to BCH, you think it would? 1:01:13IstoraBecause when you say literally all, then no one's. 1:01:18LunarNot all, but 90%, let's say, move to BCH. I think it would just be like a weird thing. It's even hard to… If not… 1:01:29Istora99% of miners moved to BCH in the space of a couple of days, for example. Then Bitcoin would probably go to like close to 0 because. The difficulty adjustment would mean that they can't mine blocks. And they'd just be like, BCH would not be transferable for… Weeks, probably, or at least many days. So that. 1:01:52LunarOn average. 1:01:52IstoraHuge impact. 1:01:54LunarMaybe it would have, like, a huge temporary impact, but it's even hard to say with these, like, counterfactuals, because it's like, you know, what would cause. 1:02:03IstoraOh, it's not true. It's not counterfactual, it's just the reality of the protocol. If you lose 99% of hash rate in a short amount of time, then you just don't mine blocks anymore. 1:02:14LunarRight. So when you, when you said if miners move, like, mine, when you say miners control the network, that's true, like, if you're saying strictly, like, you know, 51% determines what blocks. Enter the network. And that might even be a concern for ETC, because there's a bunch of, like, MEV stuff that happens on, like, these financial chains that doesn't happen on BTC, so that's not how that's going to interact. Like, that's not perfectly clear, I don't But yeah, when you said, when you said miners control, miners control the network. It also comes down to beliefs, like, it's not just miners, it's, like, people have to agree to, like, use the chain, right? Like, the miners, that's just one part of the puzzle, like. 1:03:01IstoraThat's true, that's. 1:03:03LunarLike it. 1:03:04IstoraIt fundamentally comes down to information and which memes happen to be in the minds of which miners or people that control the hardware and the electricity combo. So, you're right, that… I'm looking at one layer above the actual source, which is what people think. 1:03:21LunarMmhm I mean, sort of the market for ETC right now is, you know, there's constant sell pressure from miners, and there's, like, a few believers that are buying it. And so, and I suppose there's like developers. stuff, too, that are deploying, but they're not really, like, buying or selling ETC that much, I don't think, I don't know But yeah, it's like, if it was just miners, you know, that would just be token selling, right? And so there has to be someone. 1:03:58IstoraI guess I'm talking more about the practical Right. Cash rate. 1:04:02Lunarfor it. Yeah, if you just say 51%, and who knows, like, the miners could form, like, a cartel of 50. Yeah, they could. Like, there's all these, like, but maybe that doesn't do too much, because, you know, you can always… There's all there's all these sort of like. Things that you can really, like, say, okay, is this gonna be a theoretical attack in the future, or whatever? 1:04:25IstoraYeah. The main, I guess, identified potential concern is the monopoly of mining hardware. And that is the case for all blockchains, and they're basically all coming from the same place. And. The thing is, that is not, like, a locked-in thing, and… geopolitical… Realities shift over time. Just because there's a monopoly right now doesn't mean there always will be geographically. And. That's… that's kind of like It is a potential problem, but it's… the network cannot do anything better, if you like. It's the optimal out. It's the optimal situation. And anyone's free to build their own ASIC. Outside the network. And in that sense, it's still permissionless and it's still neutral. To miners, and that's the best the network can do, basically. 1:05:22LunarYep. The good thing about the proof of work is, okay, even if you have 51% hash power, you still can't really damage the network. You can, you can, you know, you determine the blocks, or whatever. But it's still not, like, fully damaging. If proof of stake 51%, you can just rewrite everything, right? 1:05:43IstoraI think it's 33% with proof of stake. You can't necessarily rewrite everything, but you can definitely, like, stop The network from operating. 1:05:51LunarYeah, I think 33% stops the… or… I don't know, something like that, but if you have enough, like, proof of stake… proof of stake is just, like, council of elders decide everything. Like, it's just, you know, you have, there's no even, like, strictly… because you can upgrade the protocol, right? Like, there's no even protocol you need to follow. With proof of stake. 1:06:15IstoraYeah, it's like the ultimate rent seeking and it's like built in. Oligarchy for the network. 1:06:23LunarYeah. 1:06:24IstoraYou stay, you get more power. 1:06:26LunarWith proof-of-work, it's just like, even if you got majority or whatever, it's like, you're only determining, okay, you can make block times really long, you can just, like, sort of freeze transactions for a while you have this majority hash power. Or, but that's. 1:06:42IstoraAnd then you can't eat With 51% attack, 51% doesn't give you the ability to stop transactions. You can… 1:06:50LunarYou could put empty blocks, right? 1:06:54IstoraYou could, and you can basically reorg, and you can cause problems, but… It's not really preventing… legit transactions from eventually getting included. That's not really the attack. 1:07:09LunarEventually. Yeah. That's my point. It's quite limited. And is there, like, miner centralization that's occurring, let's say, on BTC or something like that? Or is it miner pool centralization? 1:07:26IstoraIt's difficult to know. I think it's mostly the pools that are more centralized. 1:07:32LunarBut I guess, I guess that becomes, Well, I guess, I guess if their, if their interests are aligned enough, you know, that becomes the same thing So… 1:07:41IstoraYep. 1:07:42Lunarthere's, there are all these sorts of, attacks. And the thing is, you know, the miners, the miners, they're like, they're like aggressive token sellers, right? They're the guys, they're the guys that need to sell. So it's like. They diverge from like pure token holders. And so there's all these sort of attacks that you do, that do need to be thought out. 1:08:06IstoraYeah, I'm currently, I'm about to start reading a book called Defending Bitcoin, which is exactly on this topic and all the potential theoretical attacks that. Almost fully applied to ETC as well because it's proof of work. Elucidating to understand what the potential. failure states are and maybe work around them with some hindsight. 1:08:31LunarBecause these things are, these things are all experiments, like no one, you know, there's, you know, Satoshi is a kind of god, but it You know, he's, he could be also be infallible, he could also be fallible, like there's, no one knows, like, will the economics of this thing work out in the future? That's true. 1:08:48IstoraThere is this sense of… pretense of knowledge and foresight that people are like, oh yeah, Bitcoin is the future, ETC is the future. And… it's good at marketing, but is it fully honest? And maybe, like. the point of, yeah, we don't know what the future is going to be is probably just the best. Most reliable thing to say. 1:09:14LunarYeah, there's. 1:09:15Istorathe most like memetic. 1:09:18LunarYeah, there are very strong arguments for why it's inevitable, right? Like, if you say BTC or fiat currency, like, the arguments for BTC instead of fiat are extremely strong. It's hard to say, like, that will ever be stopped, but if you say. But. if you, if you give, like, if you say, like, oh, what about the, you know, miner centralization or something? I think the Satoshi white paper. It ends with something like, you know, the chance of a, of a long, of a long standing reorg is something like. you know, 0.0001% after, I don't know, a thousand blocks, or… like, it gives a calculation for the, for, you know, assuming you have 51% hash rate, or assuming you have 49% hash rate, or whatever. Like, it gives the calculation for how long you can expect the, you know, given some parameters, how sure you can be your transaction is included after so and so many blocks, and it's, like, less than 0.001, but that's not… that's not prayer of certainty, right? So it's like, it's You know. You have to be careful with all these things. You have to see them through. We'll see. Hopefully they last a while. 1:10:32IstoraI hope no one's, like, 100% into anything in their life. Right? Or diversification is just. A reality. 1:10:40LunarI am, I don't know, I'm like… I'm basically… I mean, I'm not totally… 1:10:47IstoraOkay. 1:10:47LunarBut I'm like, you know, I'm for. Quite big on this, so… 1:10:53IstoraBut you still own other things. Like… You probably purchased, maybe you purchased a sandwich once. 1:11:01LunarYeah, I guess — yeah, sure. I own other things. I own other things in small amounts, yeah. Right. Yep. 1:11:11IstoraBut no, I'm also long ETC. Don't get me wrong. I see a very strong future for it. And, I think, I also had this… Idea recently that. Part of… The problem, I think, with a lot of projects is that they're competing for the attention of people. And that is something that's very difficult to do in the modern world, especially when you're competing with algorithms. It's kind of like trying to day trade when you've got, like, these Lightspeed AlgoBots. trading against you. So trying to do marketing in the space that's saturated by like AI TikTok videos and stuff is a very difficult game to win. So, it seems like… The strategy should not be necessarily to try and do that because it's going to be very expensive and probably not going to work. So. Maybe the thing we try to do is attract the attention, not of people, but of robots. of agents.

1:12:17AI agents, predictions, and NourishMint

1:12:17LunarI don't… no, you're falling, you're falling for, like, this modern LARP, like, when the, when the TV people don't know what to say, they go, like, it's gonna be Agentic Payments You know how many times I'm listening to these people on podcasts say, like, AI is going to use Ethereum. It's like, okay, that tells me maybe no one's going to be using Ethereum in the future. Okay. So, yeah, you're falling for this social contagion buzzword thing, like AI, Agentic. It's like, no. if you're asking, like, who… like, the money will naturally… the money will naturally see, like, that this is, like, the most secure chain, and it will naturally flow. It takes some time for, like, the truth to be revealed about all these things, but it's like… It is there is a sort of inevitability to it. We just have to be patient. That's like the main thing. 1:13:08IstoraShall we do some predictions? I think this is a nice way to validate. Whether our thinking is correct, we can look back in a year's time and say, look, this is what we got right and what we got wrong. Let's do like 1 year and 5 year and. the type of activity on the ETC network. Where do you think the Majority of… transaction throughput will come from in terms of human or robots. In one year and five years' time. 1:13:45LunarWhat are you are you asking for? For humans versus robots, like… Yeah. Or are you asking specifically what will be done on ETC? Are you asking specifically? 1:13:59IstoraOkay. 1:14:00LunarFraction will be humans or robots because it's like there's lots of bots on Ethereum now. I don't know, maybe Ethereum is already probably, like, 90%, like, technically bot transactions, because it's like, you know, you have these people that run bots constantly for, you know, 50 cents profit. Right. 1:14:20IstoraI don't mean trading bots. I mean, like, I'll be clearer. And let's say that this, to test the thesis at the Agentic. Social contagion is just… A contagion with no… Real future potential. I don't agree, and I'll say that… 1:14:39LunarOkay. 1:14:40Istora5 years. A majority of transaction throughput on ETC will be through agents. That's my… that's my prediction. Five years, a majority of ETC transactions will be agentic. 1:14:52LunarOkay. 1:14:53IstoraThank you. 1:14:54LunarIf by agent, you mean LLM specifically? 1:14:59IstoraYep. 1:14:59LunarSure. I disagree. I disagree with that. If by agent you mean like trading bots. Or if you mean people, if you mean like trading bots developed by people, I think I would agree. Yep. 1:15:17IstoraI don't mean trading bots, because trading bots don't actually typically create on-chain activity, they're just… They're using centralized exchanges and making trades. I mean, like, actual value transfers and contract interactions on-chain. 1:15:32LunarI think. 1:15:32IstoraOkay. 1:15:33LunarThey interact with contracts. But they're running, like, a predetermined script, whereas, you know, Agentic LLM, it's undeterministic. I think that. 1:15:44IstoraYeah, but like on ETC, there's no like popular. Dex. And… 1:15:50LunarRight. Right. Yes. Well, we don't even we don't even have some we don't even have like stablecoins yet. Right. I mean, we have. 1:15:58IstoraWhich is why I was asking about that one, that USC. I wonder what's actually backing that. But yeah, there's my prediction. Let's talk in five years and see what happens. Okay. 1:16:13LunarI don't know. 1:16:14IstoraTrying to help make it happen. 1:16:16Lunardisagree. For one year, for one year, I'll say we will have, we will have, like, basically a lot of the DeFi stuff. We've already had inklings of it, but we will have, like. a lot of the DeFi stuff start coming through. And we'll have a lot more… we'll have a lot more apps within one year. For. For ETC. Like, worst case scenario, worst case scenario, if no one wants to do it, eventually, like, I'll get tired, and I'll just start, like, copy-pasting contracts, onto ETC. And so that's… I think that's an easy prediction to make. Someone will eventually do it, and eventually, like… if no one else, you know, I'll do it. I'll do it one year from now. Just remind me. So that's… that's an easy prediction. Five years out, you know, the Agentic Payments thing, like, dude, you're falling for buzzwords. Like, the AI thing is, it's like legitimate innovation, legit But yeah, well, yeah. 1:17:16IstoraOkay, well, we'll see. 1:17:18LunarI, 1:17:19IstoraI'm very… was it… I'm AI pilled. So, yeah. 1:17:24LunarYeah, I mean, I am too, but a lot of it is just crap as well. So, yeah. 1:17:32IstoraFair play, fair play. Okay. True of any new thing. Okay. 1:17:37LunarCool. 1:17:38IstoraYeah, I just wanted to make one final mention of a new project that is in beta right now called NourishMint. I may have mentioned it previously. If you're interested in beta testing that, you can reach out to me. Or just visit… beta.nourishmint.xyz and this may be mentioned in future calls, but it's basically a way to prove contributions be made to ETC, and I'm thinking, like, for people that join the call. they'll be able to be rewarded somehow in the future. And other things around the ETC ecosystem, like making pull requests and that kind of thing. So if you're interested in helping these early stages of getting this thing Off the ground, and this also might evolve into a jobs board for agents. In the future. So… This is your opportunity to get in on the ground floor on this new project, so reach out to me if you're interested. Okay, and… Now we wrap, unless you wanted to have any other mentions, Lunar? 1:18:42LunarAll good, all good. Excellent discussion. 1:18:45IstoraAll right, cool. Thank you for joining, and thank you everyone for listening, and we'll see you next time in two weeks, same time, same place, on Ethereum Classic Community Call number 57. Once again, thanks for joining. Take care. Bye.