Decentralism

0:02Welcome and introductions

IstoraHello, and welcome to Ethereum Classic Community Call. It is Friday, September 18th, 2026. We're having an extra call this week, because we will be adjusting the schedule so that the next call will once again be in two weeks, and we'll have a special call which I'll talk about later. But, for now, we just have an extra call since the last week, and we have, with us on this call, some regular joiners, as well as some new faces, so… why don't we go around and say hello, just quickly? Hello, my name's Istora. On the call, we also have Luna. 0:44

LunarHello, I'm Luna. Community member here? 0:48

IstoraHey, Luna, we have Codeaholic. 0:51

codeaholicHey, codeaholic here. I've been here a few times, and I'm working on quantum hardening and quantum computing in general, but you can find me in the server or on the GitHub, and I'm looking forward to building with all of you and talking with all of you. 1:10

IstoraThank you for joining again, codeaholic. We have Kevin. 1:14

KevinHey, guys, back for number 2, ETC Community Call Number 2, happy to be a part of it. 1:20

IstoraIt's number 60, Kevin. You've missed most of them. 1:24

KevinYeah, number 2 for me, but, yeah, I'll be catching up. 1:29

IstoraI'm just kidding, but thanks for joining again for number two. Kevin, number 2. And we have Lady Rose on the call. I'm not sure if you got your mic working, but if you have, maybe say hello? Okay, yeah, so we have… Lady Rose, just as a listener for this call, and as people join… Oh, she said hello in the chat. Hello. Thanks for joining Lady Rose. I think I've seen you on Twitter as a… ETC prominent… tweeter. I notice on the Twitters. And thanks for joining the call. For people listening on YouTube, there is a green room discussion that you can join us an hour before the scheduled call. And in that call, we were discussing offline, before recording, about various topics of interest.

2:23Clarity Act, markets and Tron

2:23

IstoraOne of the topics we were just talking about was the macro trend, so this, the Clarity Act and Litecoin ETFs and other announcements in the American markets about, positive news for crypto. So… Would one of you guys that know a bit more about this like to jump in and explain what's happened recently, and why people might care? 2:48

LunarI mean, I think that's, it's like… it's such a fraud, like, no one knows which way the market is going to go. It's sort of like… I don't think these news… I think… a lot of time, like, the price moves, and then people look at news events to sort of, like, form, for, like, the news events happen after the price. People just, like, sort of justify it later on, in many of these cases. Of course, for specific things, like, there might be a, you know, a specific reason why the price moved up or down. But many of these things, it's like, the news is after the fact, but I'm interested, like, in other opinions. If anyone has them. 3:26

KevinYeah, it's interesting, because, before the Clarity Act passed Monday, you saw a huge pump in, like, almost every token. And then, I think the night before, something happened where they said the other side wasn't going to agree to it, then the Clarity Act, didn't pass, or the cloture didn't pass, and then you started to see, like, a drop in everything. And then, like, a couple days later today, you have something like Uniswap up 18%, you have Zcash up 8%, like… to me, that's… that's, kind of interesting, because, you would think… well, I think it actually has to do with the CFTC and the SEC actually putting out statements saying that they're gonna go ahead and form that crypto regulation. Whether or not the government gets behind it. or the Senate or the Congress could get behind it. But then you had the interest rates, that news seemed to lower the price of Bitcoin. And then today, you have this pump, so… I don't know what… what to make of it. It's… it's very interesting, I think… I'm not an economist, but I've heard some of their takes, and one take I heard was that, the interest rate itself going up or down has really nothing to do with whether or not it's good or bad for Bitcoin. But, there's… there's underlying, things regarding, broader and larger macroeconomic trends that, I, don't have the qualifications to speak to. So, yeah, it's just an interesting situation, I would say. 5:30

IstoraYeah, does anyone know exactly what the Clarity Act would entail? in terms of crypto regulation in the US. I'm guessing it's good. 5:42

KevinSo broadly, from what I know, the Clarity Act was gonna, like, establish, like, clear regulation on stablecoin-ish… stablecoins, basically… how should I put it? Just regulating the crypto industry, because right now, there was, like, little to no regulation, that… that… without a quick Google search, that's all I can say, is it was meant to regulate, a lot of different things, like, token issuance for, like, ICOs and stuff, raising funds with, like, an ICO. Stablecoins had a lot to do with it. I know what some of the pushback had to do with banks. They didn't, they didn't want, like. things like Tether and other stablecoins to be able to, produce a yield. So… they pushed back against that, but yeah, a quick Google search would lend me some, some help right here. 6:58

IstoraYeah, I guess the other, news that is related to all this is the… the $500… $5,000 checks that might be appearing in American… letterboxes. That's… previously, during the COVID times, it was similar to the stimmy checks, and a lot of people bought crypto with that as a kind of inflation hedge, so… maybe a repeat of that is being priced in. 7:29

LunarYeah, I mean, I think… I think that's sort of, like, the basic thing is just, like. you know, the price of Bitcoin is just, like, it's measured in, you know, fiat currencies. And if there's more fiat currencies, then the price of Bitcoin goes up. If people expect there to be more. I think that's… that's it on a basic level. I do, I think that… I have no idea what the Clarity Act is, like, I don't… I think this is just, like, some made-up pretend game that the politicians play in the US. But from what I've heard, it's like, it has something to do with, like, the yield on stablecoins. And if… if… if that yield is being passed down, to, right, like, there's a reason why, there's a reason why, you know, the cash in your wallet doesn't pay a yield, because it's like, that's like… that's essentially, like, you know, you're taking money from the government then. It's like, it's bad for… 8:20

IstoraRight. 8:21

LunarLike, the yield is supposed to hurt, you know, the holders of the currency. But it's like, if everyone was doing that, it would be… it would be financially, like, disastrous for, for whatever, for whatever government's in charge. It's just like, like, and so, like, banks keep that, try to keep that controlled. I think if it… if it… if you're passing that on to stablecoin holder as well, like, that's… that's still, like, a relatively small fraction of the… of the total population. And so… but it's interesting how, like, like. These currencies are slowly abolishing themselves, like, it's slowly… like, they're sort of, like, slowly fading in strength relative to crypto assets. And, you know, okay, I mean, we see this in the US, like, you know, you get a pro-Bitcoin guy in the US, and the first thing he does is, like, okay, we're gonna print more money, we want the dollar to be weaker. In order for, in order for, you know, our favorite, our favorite token to rise. And I think that's gonna eventually spread to, like, other countries too, where it's like… maybe eventually you'll have, like, a pro-Bitcoin guy in the EU Parliament saying the same thing, and that they're gonna destroy their own currency. I mean, El Salvador has already done it. And so, like, we're waiting, basically, now on other countries to see, like, who else is gonna… who else is gonna jump in the ring. But it's just… there is sort of… like, it's just a better form of money, and so, like, something like this, not… maybe not quite inevitable, but… you know, this idea's always sort of, like, floating around. And so… yeah, I guess that's how I see the long term. 10:06

IstoraI'll just read a quick summary for the listeners about Clarity Act, and it was blocked a couple days ago in… the Senate of the US, so it's actually not happening, at least this year, apparently, but… the idea is that it would… divide jurisdiction between the SEC and the CFTC. and explicitly classify Bitcoin and Ethereum, and I'm guessing ETC as a commodity. And create registration requirements for exchanges, blah blah blah. And… There were concerns over potential conflict of interest with Donald Trump's crypto schemes. So, that's one of the reasons it was blocked. But, yeah, I… I do see, like, the classification of the layer… Layer 1 things that are truly decentralized. In a different way to securities would be potentially beneficial for those things. And I think it's, like, super important, therefore, to maintain that. decentralization. Because otherwise, it's not really a commodity, it becomes a security, right? 11:21

KevinYeah, there was also some good stuff in there for, like, decentralized finance developers, so, like, they wouldn't be held responsible for being, like, a money service business. So, like, writing code, running nodes, validating transactions, all that stuff. It would have… It would have, been classified as, like, a non-regulated activity. But, that was something that I think would have been really beneficial. We'll see what happens with the CFTC and the SEC if they do something the same. So something like Uniswap or ETCswap, they would be safe from being classified as, like, a money service business, and the developers too. So yeah, we'll see what happens. I think good things are ahead for crypto regulation. 12:15

IstoraYeah, agreed. And I think as, Luna was pointing out, it's kind of inevitable that this technology is, like, the future. And it's, like, adopt or die kind of thing. And I think the EU and other jurisdictions are also looking at at least digital payments, if not CBDCs or whatever. And blockchain is likely to play some part of that. Ideally. There's also this other, like, angle to take, which… The world itself needs… non… geographically restricted. Payment rails? That are not, like, either… Because in the future, I think both China and the US will play big roles? And currently, there's no single system that allows people to transact. Apart from what people are using right now, which is, like, Tron USDT. Which, funnily, is, like, not Ethereum. It's just some… the Justin Sun Tron chain, which nobody expected, but that is what's getting a lot of traction, and it's using US dollars to stablecoins somehow. So… That's the one that's emerged, currently. 13:28

KevinI think that's the number one stablecoin, right now, right? Or something like that? It's, like, the number one used USDT? I think it runs on Tron? Definitely. 13:40

Istorain emerging markets. 13:42

LunarIt's because of all the Asian users, yeah? 13:45

IstoraYep. I think Asian and South America. 13:48

LunarBecause I definitely noticed that when I was, it's like, yeah. Yeah, it's kind of funny, like, they, they use, they use Tron specifically, I guess because it's, like, they, they trust the Chinese… 14:01

IstoraYeah, I guess so. 14:02

KevinIs that in China? 14:05

LunarThis was in… this was in Dubai, everyone used Tron in Dubai. 14:09

KevinReally? That's interesting. 14:13

IstoraYeah, I've really… Tron kind of appeared out of nowhere, with very little… It's basically a kind of copycat of… Ethereum, and it had the… the… instead of ERC-20, it was TRC20. And, like… On the face of it, that doesn't make sense, because it's supposed to be, like, an incremental proposal, but they made it sound the same, so people understood it. Apparently Justin Sun is, like, a protégé of Jack Ma. protégé of Jack Ma, I should say. 14:46

LunarI really love, I really love Justin Sun. He's like, you know, I mean, he's a bit of a Chinese scammer, but… I love him, he's like, like, he's one of the guys, like, truly fighting the system, you know? Because he's sanctioned in all these countries, like, they're trying to sanction his exchange and, like, shut down everything, but he's, like, he's fighting the good fight, you know? I think he really believes in, like. The decentralization thing, like, he's… he's definitely a warrior. 15:12

IstoraApparently, he's elected Prime Minister of Liberland. 15:17

LunarYeah, I got it. Thank you. 15:20

IstoraOkay, interesting. But… 15:24

KevinI remember they were actually, Tron was actually accused of copying Ethereum code in 2017. 15:33

IstoraNo doubt. 15:36

LunarI mean, I mean, it's just… 15:36

KevinYes, it's… 15:37

LunarIt's just a, like, plain copy, like, literally, they just, they changed the logo, you know? 15:43

IstoraRight. 15:43

KevinYeah, they were caught, the white paper was caught plagiarizing. 15:49

LunarYeah. 15:50

KevinBut that's way… 10 years ago. 15:53

LunarThat's crazy. Like, these are Chinese entrepreneurs, like, that's… this is their whole shtick, like, that's what it means. 16:00

IstoraRight. But he also funded the Trump family. He's, like, the biggest investor in the Trump family. World Liberty Financial. So… who knows what the politics there are, but I'm interested in the technical side of how decentralized Tron is, and my guess is probably not that decentralized. Just… from the… the outset, but that's… I hadn't looked into it at all, so maybe it is, maybe. 16:29

LunarMy impression is, if you really wanted to, Justin Sun could shut it all down, but he's, like, a trustworthy guy. Like, you would never do that, you know? But, that's sort of… that was sort of my impression. 16:44

IstoraWell, could he be coerced into, is the question, whether or not. 16:48

LunarNo, I don't think it's easy to coerce him into it, because he's like, you know, he's like a billionaire, he's like, he became a billionaire by, you know, sort of, like, by transgressing boundaries, so I don't think he's an easy guy to coerce. I think if he really wanted to, he probably could. But he won't, like, you know, he's… it's sort of like, it's the difference between, like, you know, a constitution where everyone's virtuous, or you have, like, a monarchy, where it's just, like, it's just one person, like, guaranteeing the freedom of everyone. That's sort of how I think of it. 17:23

IstoraOkay?

17:24Proof of work and the quantum threat

17:24

IstoraNo. Well, I'll… I can't really comment on Tron too much, because I have literally almost no interest in it, but because it's so popular, it seems like it's warranting more investigation, and maybe opportunity for ETC to build bridges, like, as a neutral EVM… bridge between different EVMs, and maybe… as a proof-of-work backstop to the security of these proof-of-stake chains, especially in the upcoming quantum threat, which we talked about in previous calls, didn't we, codeaholic? Sorry to put you on the spot there, but if you jump back a couple of calls, one of the things we talked about at the very end of that quantum discussion, which I think was really useful. And something I brought up again in the Bitmain conference a few weeks ago was this, the opportunity presented to proof of work chains. Given that the migration, because of quantum attacks might be like, orders of magnitude, more complicated on proof of stake. So… those chains could be, like, anchoring their security, even just as a backup plan to Ethereum Classic, because it's EVM compatible. And has a strong security on the mining side. 18:51

LunarYeah, I mean, my sort of… I guess people maybe know my opinion on that already, but it's just… if that's the best argument for proof of work, like, just, you know, call it… it's over, like, pack your bags, it's like… I… I don't think… I don't think the quantum threat is real. It's just, like, some… some boogeyman, maybe… maybe far out into the future. And so, like, I mean, the real argument, the real argument for proof of work is, like, eventually these other chains, like, are gonna be revealed, like, slowly to be fraud. And so, like, it'll be the most secure. I don't know if it'll… maybe it'll be the most quantum secure in the future, but this is, like… like, some fictional thing, you know, this is, like, some pretend universe. It's, like, secure in the sense that people can affect it. So it's like… 19:35

IstoraYeah, I agree that, like, the actual implications are still unknown. But a lot of these things… about narratives. Like, in all of these systems. That matters, and a lot of people do believe that the quantum threat is real, and a lot of those people are also working on other. 19:55

LunarEventually. 19:55

Istorathat are proof-of-stake. So, maybe there are specific narratives that can appeal to specific subsets of people to encourage them to use more secure systems like ETC. 20:07

LunarSure, sure, sure. Eventually, the narratives have to converge to reality. It's like, you know, a narrative is… it's like a kind of bubble, right? Like, people believe in bubbles, they have, like, all sorts of weird, like, cults or beliefs, and then eventually, like, there's… eventually, like, reality comes back, and it's like, they have to… they have to reconcile their beliefs with that. 20:26

codeaholicWell, Department of Energy just issued a huge amount of money, like, as a prize amount. I think it was, $100 million, 200 million, something crazy like that, for, companies to submit. quantum computing solutions, so… there's a lot of money that's chasing quantum computers. No. 20:47

LunarNot only that. 20:48

codeaholicBut also, there's, like, just the efficiency that's possible with, large language models, and how, like, the Frontier Labs are using them to, solve, like, even millennium problems these days. So, considering the big push with money behind it, and then also just the… gains from AI, I think, like, quantum computing is definitely… like, a real thing, you know, it's just, like, fast… faster computing. So, that's what the improvements are for. It's to meet that risk before, like, it's actually more palpable, so that we don't get to the point of a breach before we try to patch the issue, since it'll be much more complicated to fix it then. 21:40

LunarYeah, you did mention the, the Millennium Prize, like, Navier-Stokes, that was actually huge news. Like, it's, it's just so over. If you're, like, an academic, or a math person, or, like, or even, like, a theoretical physicist, it's just, like, it's so over. Like, the AI is better than you at everything. It's just, like, what does human even do? Because, like. Like, what'd you even do, like, because the computers can just do, like, everything you're good at, like, the computers can just do better, so it's just like… it's just… it's over. like… It's sort of, because I used to be in academia for a while, because it's just like… 22:17

codeaholicand keep doing. 22:17

LunarBut more of the same. Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, like, it's gonna be, you know, humanity is supervising the machines, but now it's just, like, at some point, like, they can solve all the problems, all the math problems. better than everyone else, so it's crazy. I do use it in my work a lot. I use the AI in my work, and it's just… I'm slowly, like, giving it, like, you know, more and more, more and more access. It's doing more and more things in, like, in one shot, and it's just, like… Like, at some point, it's like, am I even necessary in the process? It's like… I feel like I should be, like, a blue-collar worker or something, because, like, because this will be, like, the last job to go, like, what am I… No. 23:01

KevinWould you say, like, the main threat with quantum would be through, like, a quantum computer solving, like, like, a hashing algorithm, or, like, a quantum computer mixed with something like AI getting to, like, super intelligence combined? 23:22

LunarTo be clear, to be clear, right now, it's like, they haven't factored 35. It's like 5 times 7 is too difficult for quantum computers. And this has been, like, going on for a decade, like, we've been working on 35, for a decade. So it's like, let's first try to factor 35 before we talk about… before we talk about, like, you know, quantum apocalypse. So it's like, that's sort of my perspective of quantum. It's just like. Okay, let's… let's try to, like, first, let's try to first master multiplication before, before talking about how, like, quantum is gonna kill everyone. 23:53

codeaholicYeah, I mean, last time I presented, like, a couple slides on, like, qubit counts and, Toffoli gate counts, and basically, like, the point of the slides was to say that if looking at the, like, what is the physical count of these properties that are required for a quantum computer to exist, and then to also be fast enough to be able to reverse engineer information by, like, breaking existing encryption algorithms and things like this. It's not exactly, like, an immediate risk, you know, we don't have to drop everything and… panic about it, or worry about it. Like, I don't know if anybody knows about the dot-com Y2K era, or dot-com era Y2K scenario, where people are, like, panicking and. buying a bunch of, like, emergency supplies and stuff like that, I don't think we have to… get to that point, but depending on how, like. Depending on what you're building and how important it is. And, like, how long you want it to exist, like, at a secure data… hum… in a secure data layer, then it's definitely something to think about sooner rather than later, but yeah, I think, like, probably a few years before it's truly a huge problem. 25:12

IstoraYeah, I think the Y2K point is really interesting because people use this as a… a way to kind of dismiss, fears, but… actually. It took a lot of engineering hours to fix these problems, and partly because of the hysteria, you could say that it was fixed. So, I don't know whether that's a pro… whether or not… did you worry? But… I would point it to being like, yeah, this was a past example of a time-based problem, similar to quantum. in that… There was enough time to fix it. And enough people were focused so that it didn't have the big impact. And Y2K is basically what we want to achieve with a response to quantum. Whenever it happens, if it happens at all, we just want to make sure it's mitigated before it becomes a problem. And, the other issue with the AI overlap is that like, some labs are saying we're going to be getting into recursive self-improvement. And if that happens, then maybe, like, quantum technology really rapidly accelerates, much sooner than we expected. So, there are multiple, like, potential outcomes here that… it would be nice to just not think about, but I think it would be a dereliction of duty for us to not at least think about what needs to be done at some point in time in the future. And, Kevin, back to your point about how this… might be a problem. It's not that it can undo hashing algorithms. But it might be possible for signatures to be basically reverse engineered. So, if you've made a transaction on. 27:06

KevinTo break the private key. 27:09

IstoraBasically, yeah. Basically, yeah. If… as long as the public key is available. Then it might be possible to figure out the private key for that public key, which means that a lot of the… if you've made a transaction already, because those addresses are shared, then those addresses can be drained, basically. It's a bit different, on… 27:32

KevinMakes sense, because… 27:34

Istorathe private key. If you're, like, using wallet hygiene, which most wallets do, they always send to a new address with a new private key. And… as long as you don't make a transaction. It can't be reverse engineered, because the private key… sorry, the public key has not been exposed yet, but for the old like Satoshi coins, they, I believe, are in a different category of key pair, which means the public key is available. So that's a larger problem for Bitcoin. So in the case of Ethereum, like. It's quite a complicated problem in different… blockchains will need different solutions, and ETC will need its own specific solution that we need to think about. However, because it's proof of work, it's a lot less complicated than whatever Ethereum needs to do. 28:28

KevinSo what about proof of work makes it less of a problem? 28:34

IstoraSo in Ethereum proof-of-stake chains, all of the transactions used for consensus-making are relying on quantum insecure signatures. And not only that, but in order to migrate to a secure quantum signature. They're typically requiring a lot more data. In the signature itself, for that added security. So, they need to come up with, kind of, novel consensus mechanism that's scalable, that is quantum secure. Whereas in proof of stake, sorry, in proof of work, it's a lot more simple. You're just hashing, and that is not as vulnerable to quantum attacks. And you'll… you're really relying on energy from outside the system for that security that can't really be forged by a quantum machine. 29:22

KevinOkay, and it takes a lot of energy, right, to power a quantum computer, so I've heard. 29:29

IstoraIt's less about the energy, more just the technical… However, if I understand correctly, there… architectures of quantum machines that are scaling differently, that are theoretically coming online a lot sooner, and won't require like, such extreme, like, the classical ones, sorry, the original quantum machines required, like, near zero Kelvin temperature. Which is… obviously quite technically challenging and limits scalability, but there are new types of systems that can be done at room temperature, as far as I understand. 30:13

KevinSo what would you say is a bigger threat? Superintelligence and recursive, the RSI with the AI, or quantum itself? 30:27

IstoraA bigger threat to what? To Ethereum Classic? I think Quantum. To humanity? Probably RSI. Like, I actually think… 30:37

KevinAnd then a combination of both. 30:40

LunarNo, no, no, no, I… there's a third option. It's the people that want to regulate, the people that are scared of, like, oh, there's a… It's like the AI safety people that want the one world totalitarian government to make sure, like, we can't train our own models. Like, that's the biggest threat. That's the biggest… that's bigger than quantum, that's bigger than the super intelligent AI. It's like the AI safety people that say, you know, we need one world government to ban all the, you know, undesirable models. Like, that… that, I think, is a much bigger threat. Not… not… but that's not for ETC, you know, that's neither here nor there. But, like, when we're talking about, like, AI Armageddon, we should also talk about You know, the, The proposed solutions, which are always, like, you know. Extremely totalitarian. Just sort of like, we, you know, we have access to all the world's computers to make sure that they're not, you know, training a model.

31:36ML-DSA precompile: early gas results

31:36

codeaholicI think this is, like, a very good thing to talk about, because it pertains to the decentralization that Ethereum Classic tries to maintain, like, as a core aspect of its technology, but if you guys want, I can also, like, briefly share my, preliminary results of the quantum testing stuff. While we talk about this stuff. Okay, cool, cool, yeah, let me just share my screen to show you the, very brief, let's see… Alright, I'm just gonna… okay, I'm sharing screen. I'm just gonna show you on the pull request where I pasted some, preliminary findings, and then I'll have some more… details next week, at next week's session, because I just want to keep it brief this time, since I didn't have as much time as I wanted. But basically, since last time, what I did was, last time I talked about how I have a smart contract in production that I use for my own stuff, and I'm testing out the ML-DSA precompile. On my own smart contract. So, in other words. I have a smart contract that lets a user, introduce, like, some state changes into their own data structure that they care about, and in order to add quantum hardening to that, since this data structure is very important, these users will care about these data structures for potentially hundreds, thousands, or greater number of years. we don't want unauthorized writes to affect this data structure, or to, like, ruin it, so I created a version of the smart contract that just implements a little bit of the quantum hardening that we talked about last time, and one of the things that came up was, how does this affect the gas costs? Because you know, like, if you're implementing a smart contract and you want to add a version of your methods that supports ML-DSA precompile, so that you can take advantage of the quantum hardening being provided by this draft. you want to know what the costs are like, so, I did some testing. This was a multi-node testing on one machine. So, it's very early results. I'm gonna repeat this on… multi-machine, multi-node, setup. For more data, but basically what it looks like is that for a reasonable amount of batching. You can expect, like, around, 26%. Gas premium. If you are not batching. your requests, it's a… it's a larger premium, like 100-200% gas premium, but what this amounts to in practicality, like, when I tried it so far, is some cents. so… This is not terrible, because all of this will be, like, optional or opt-in, meaning in order to actually make usage of this precompile, your smart contract will need to implement it, and then I have a screenshot here of some early delta in my application, where I just wanted to show you how it's very little code to actually start interacting with a version of your smart contract that is making usage of that precompile to do a more stringent check before it allows somebody to write a state change into your smart contract. So, with this very early report, I ran, like. you know, I generated millions of events across both versions of the contracts, and that was just to see, like. consistency, of gas cost implications? Across all the transactions, so… time investment into all this was… I mean, the bigger test took, like, almost 11 hours, plus some auditing time, where the events were post-processed to, do, like, another round of checking to see if it's all correct signing. And, so yeah, many, many hours of testing, but this is just very preliminary, because I want to do another round of this, on a multi-machine setup, like I mentioned. And then, I'm also in the process of starting to set up, like, a plan for, deploying to Mordor to test in an actual like, Mordor environment. So that'll be… coming as well, but, yeah, next… next week I'll have more where I will show you, like, the actual code example. And, maybe even, like. I'll run, like, one of these tests or something, and we can dive more into the code. I haven't had as much time as I wanted since last time, but wanted to at least present this much to say that gas cost implications of the precompile quantum hardening solution are not terrible, especially considering that this is going to be opt-in, so if you're building something that is going to be, like, actually relevant to users for any significant amount of time. Or just relevant, like, very important data structures or mechanisms, where you wouldn't want somebody to breach you with a quantum computer. you would just use this, and then, you know, very reasonable overall by comparison with a breach possibility, but, yep, just wanted to present this. I'm gonna be, diving in more, and collecting more test data, and doing more testing, and I will also be sharing, like, some artifacts and setup instructions, so that if anybody else wants to run the same test to, like, replicate the test and see for yourself. you'll be able to do that as well. And, I believe that I'll be able to upload some artifacts that will show you, like, since this is all local, you cannot see the contract deployment, even if I give you the contract address, because it's on my actual hardware. But I believe it's possible to upload some artifacts that will let you, like, set up your node, if you want, to be, like, basically how mine is, so that you can even see the contract deployment that I did, and timestamps and all that, but that's overkill, because I don't think the previous precompiles that were added in ETC history ever actually had that kind of treatment, and if they did, that's fantastic, but… with all of this, I will also be creating, like, a process for how do we test PRs like this, and like, what is a good community standard for testing, I guess, but I know that was a lot, so I just wanted to leave that out there and say, like, so far. early testing is pretty… pretty good results. I'm pretty happy with, gas cost implications as somebody who's building in the space, and would actually… will actually make usage of this precompile for myself. 38:37

IstoraAwesome, thank you for sharing that. It's a… it's a great… to have someone, like, actually going down these paths and starting the on-the-ground research necessary, and starting to test these things, because I think it's going to be very relevant. When it comes to the… the gas… could you give us, like, a summary of how you're determining what the gas price of the precompile should be. Are you, like, benchmarking against different precompiles? And, like, yeah, basically… 39:20

codeaholicOh, yeah, sure. So the way that this was calculated is… it just… it just makes an assumption about how much gwei, like, the unit, is worth, given some ETC price. So I used the, current ETC price of, like. something, $7.45. And then what it… what it does is, it runs… it basically does a contract deployment, and then it just simulates a bunch of transactions, and then each of those transactions, when it gets invoked, it'll capture, like, the… gas quantity, like, the actual physical gas quantity that is used. In the units. So, like… the tables there show those units. For example, the most ba… the biggest… the test run with the biggest batches. Used, like, some 3 million… gas for the regular contract, but then for the ML-DSA version, it used almost 4 million. So then you can use those units to calculate, like, what is the additional cost in, in a currency, in this case, the dollar. Did I answer your question? 40:29

IstoraMy question is more about how you determine what the actual gas cost of running the precompile should be. Compared to other opcodes, for example. Like, every, if I'm… if I'm having the EVM verify a quantum secure signature. How much of the block space should that take? Because… that will determine how many of these signatures can be… executed safely in a block. Over time. 41:08

codeaholicThat's a good question. I don't know that I actually had to care about this, because… it just will do some work, and then in order to know that it will do this work, it'll give you, like, a quote for the gas. So… I will… I will get a better idea for this when I… do more testing from the user's perspective to see what the user sees in all of this, but, yeah, I don't recall that I personally, so far, had to care specifically about this, like, in the implementation. 41:41

IstoraOkay. 41:42

codeaholicFor this testing purpose, yeah, I didn't have to set this in the testing. It would just… it just told me what is the resulting amount of gas that it did spend to do the work. 41:53

IstoraOkay. So that amount of gas? Needs to be basically calibrated, I think, to the actual underlying work that it takes to validate that signature has been correct. So we can imagine, like. Imagine a block full of these signatures. At a specific gas price, and it means you can fit in 1,000 signature validations. If… if validating that block requires too much compute on the node side to… actually… run the numbers. To the point where, like, it takes longer than a block to validate the block. Then we get into, like, a run… 42:40

codeaholicI think we might be talking about something different, though, because, like, again, this is, for a smart contract implementation, so… okay. It's just that transaction time between the user and the smart contract that you deployed. So, like, from the point of view of a user interacting with a web application that talks to a smart contract, or, like, an application that talks to a smart contract. That's what I'm implementing. So yeah, I'm not implementing something here that is… running… per block, so to speak. 43:13

IstoraOkay, so… the signature itself is implemented in Solidity. 43:22

codeaholicYes, this affects your Solidity implementation, yep. So, your smart contract, which is written in Solidity. It'll have to receive some code changes. 43:34

IstoraOkay. 43:34

codeaholicAnd I showed a small example of that last session in a screenshot, if I remember correctly, in one of the slides, to show, like, this is what the Solidity looks like before and after. I will show, like, an actual code example next week, at next week's session, for my own… 43:50

IstoraOkay. 43:50

codeaholicMy own code editor. 43:53

IstoraCool. Yeah, be… 43:54

codeaholicBut are we talking about something different, then, or are you talking about, like, when blocks are… are being mined, basically? Like, how many… 44:03

IstoraLike, when I… 44:04

codeaholicfit in… 44:05

IstoraI think typically, like, precompile is referring to something that… is executed during the validation. So instead of having a contract that runs a particular hashing algorithm, for example. You would have this run… off-chain. Rather than inside the execution environment. With a… in a particular way, in part of the client, to offload that… otherwise onerous gas cost on-chain. And instead, it just has, like, a fixed price per execution in gas, if I'm understanding correctly. And in this way, like, all of these different operations would have different… costs associated with them, priced in gas. As in, like, the amount of gas required to execute this particular… precompile. That is my understanding. It's also possible to implement all these things in pure Solidity, or in bytecode, but with the… precompile approach. You're just kind of, like. Preferring this to be run off-chain, and then… the computation is still run, but it's done more efficiently, and therefore can be… more scalable. And for something like this scheme, like a signature scheme, you'd want that to be done, like, you wouldn't necessarily want to validate the signature itself in Solidity. 45:40

codeaholicYeah, I mean, there is an implementation that you linked last time about, like, someone had implemented or started implementing the entire verification inside of Solidity itself, and it's a huge implementation, very complicated. Right. When I looked at it… when I looked at it, I saw that it has some… some dependencies that it does make usage of, too. So, whereas mine is just, like, a precompile that makes use of, CIRCL, so… I abstracted away, like, the actual ML-DSA verification. I didn't implement that myself, because I'm not a cryptographer, so I wouldn't implement that myself. I'd recommend just using CIRCL in this case. But, yeah, I mean, basically the nature of my test was to deploy my smart contract as if I'm deploying to Mordor, but, like, pre-Mordor. So I deployed my smart contract with and without some code changes that represent the fact that there is a precompile being added. The difference is that the smart contract with the precompile is basically invoking a function, and that function, when it gets invoked. I'll double-check what it does, like, if it does something off-chain, or if it's actually just… like, importing code conveniently. To do the computation on-chain, or however you would word that aspect for, like, where that execution actually takes place. But, yeah, I don't think it actually matters. Like, that's the entire… point of having, like, being able to import from CIRCL or anywhere else to import some code. But yes, I'm pretty sure, I'll double check, I'm pretty sure that this is just, like, a one-size-fits-all type of thing for this… implementation, I'll get back to you, though, to let you know. 47:29

IstoraOkay, cool. Well… I think, yeah… looking at the code, this will all make sense. So, looking forward to seeing that, and, appreciate your efforts on this research front, which I think is, super… important going forward for ETC to get right, so, it's great to have people looking at this. 47:51

codeaholicYup, yep, thanks for, paying attention to some results, and I look forward to… Sharing more in the future.

48:10The rogue core-geth release

48:10

IstoraCool, so, I guess we can… talk about this, core-geth release? What'd you guys think? 48:25

LunarOh, yeah, I mean, we spoke a little bit about this, but I, it's… we… we can't do anything if they… if they really want to fork the chain, do their own thing. Like, it would be best, the best thing is if, you know, the entire community would be together, and we'd all agree to, like, you know. you know, find a way, but if these guys want to go fork and make their own chain, it's like, we can't really do anything, we just have to, like, you know. Tell… tell our perspective, and let people decide, like, what they prefer. 48:58

IstoraYeah, I'm totally cool with people, forking the chain and doing as they please. My main concern is, like, the… the… This was done, and the kind of, like, It's a security fix. To try and get people to switch to a completely different codebase. To me, that's not the way this should be done, and… It was done in a way that is not really… Sparking joy, so to speak. 49:33

LunarYeah, yeah, it's underhanded, but, like, the people, you know, the people that switched to it, they didn't realize there was… well, first of all, do we even know that, like, anyone switched to it? Did this, like, affect anyone? 49:45

IstoraSpecifically. 49:46

LunarYeah. 49:46

IstoraSo there was one mining pool that switched for a few hours, But then they switch back. And currently, what looks like… Okay, so I just want to give the listeners a bit of a brief explanation of what happened, for the context. But basically, this weekend, there was a repository on the Ethereum Classic org repo called core-geth, which shares exactly the same name as the commonly used etclabscore/core-geth, which is run by basically all the nodes running core-geth. This repository suddenly sprang into… activity, and then within, like, 56 hours, there were a bunch of commits on it. A release was made that bumped the version, and this repository was pushed as the, like. There was a security incident, and everyone needs to upgrade to this new version. This was pushed on some of the social channels. By a single person. And… it didn't actually fix any security problems that were cited in the notification, but it instead… changed the root DNS and the boot nodes of Ethereum Classic, and also implemented MESS. A mechanism that changes, basically, how nodes reach consensus. And importantly, it was pushed to the mining pools. Using an email address. That looked official. And because it had an official-looking repo, an official-looking email address, one of the mining pools switched. But then switched back when the maintainer of core-geth made contact and basically explained the situation. I'll post a full report of what happened in… The notes of this, community call, but, effectively, if this would have been successful, and a subset of the mining pools did switch, it ran a real risk of, because of mess being activated, creating a permanent chain split on ETC, which would have been extremely problematic. And basically, they would have had to Like, one of the mining pools would be mining blocks that are not generating value, and they would have to switch back and… It could have caused potential, double spend problems. It would have been… quite bad. And… to me, as an outside observer, this seems like a kind of attack, to be honest. You can see what happened. They also put a donation address on this new repo. So… yeah, forking is one thing, and doing… like, if people are aware of what's going on and well-informed, I think people should be given the option of which client software they're running. The issue is when you, like, try to push something that seems like something that it's not. And in this case, it was pushed as a critical security update that needed immediate attention, but in fact, it's something else. And to me, that's a quite big problem. I… I hope it's remedied by the people who are responsible for these namespaces, i.e. the… Ethereum Classic org admins, because it's ultimately up to them to deal with these kind of situations. So… I'll try and remain as intrigued. 53:26

codeaholicYo. 53:27

IstoraYep. 53:27

codeaholicIs the offending repository the one that the Quantum Hardening PR was originally opened against? Because that one was opened in January. So just checking, because I'm wondering, I'm trying to wonder, like, how did I open this PR against that repository, if that repository is the bad one? But, I mean, I had opened up, like, a discussion, and… you see the ECIP draft as well. 53:54

IstoraYeah, the ECIPs is… one thing, but this new, like… the core-geth on Ethereum Classic org was forked, like, 2 years ago, and didn't receive any updates. For questionable. Okay. 54:08

codeaholicSo my PR just happened to be, like, aimed at the wrong one. 54:12

IstoraYeah, I recommend using, etclabscore/core-geth, or at least I recommend this, I'm not acting on anyone's behalf, this is just… what I believe to be the established core-geth repository, which has been. 54:25

codeaholicI did look and, see that there were, like, 2 weeks of commits on… the main branch for the, supposedly the correct one from… Olympia's perspective, or Chris's perspective, the one that they would say is the correct one, or the latest one. So I didn't have time, because I just… I just saw this today, I didn't have time to review those commits, to see, like, beyond, like, one or two of them, to see that they're… they seem reasonable, but, like, there's a lot of them, so I have to review them all, but… I will have, time next week to review all of this code and, and all the commentary, but yeah, I agree, like, I think if there was… if there was, like, a push to make it seem like something where it was not the case, then… That's concerning. Do you know if the… Ethereum Classic, admins in GitHub, like, are they not usually on these calls ever, or, like, have you… do you know who they are, separately? 55:22

IstoraYeah, so, as far as I know, the three admins are Elaine, Miko, and Cody. And one of those admins, Cody, is, like, the co-author of Olympia, so… Yeah. he's claiming, in a public GitHub pull request, that he wants to remain neutral on this topic. But at the same time, he opened a pull request to… change the client to this new repo. So… it's a really… unfortunate situation. Where we have… what appears to be, like, a… an attempt to… essentially… trick people into swapping the code that is quote-unquote official. Like, there's no official anything in Ethereum Classic. On every page of the Ethereum Classic org, this call, it's not official. Anyone can do anything they like. And that also means people can call things ethereumclassic.com. But that doesn't mean it's, like, an official thing, because, just like Bitcoin, there is no official Bitcoin. like… Foundation. It's just a group of people. So, when you're… 56:43

codeaholicOh, there's an official Bitcoin… deployed address. There's an official Ethereum deployed address. 56:50

IstoraSo if you go to bitcoin.org. And then go to about… 56:58

codeaholicOh, I mean, I'm not referring to the URL, like, I mean the token address, right? Isn't there, like, a canonical… unchanging origin point for, like, what was the first… What was the first block? Mined? 57:12

IstoraBut yeah, sure, sure. But we're talking about the… the wider community assets, like, for example, bitcoin.org. And ethereumclassic.org, like… If you go to bitcoin.org slash about us, you'll see a banner saying, bitcoin.org is not Bitcoin's official website. And similarly, the ethereumclassic.org has the same disclaimer, precisely because no one can claim to be official. Because there is no official anything in these projects, because they're decentralized. And the issue is when you're, like, presenting things as being official in order to… have people do certain actions they would not otherwise do. Like, if this… if this repository was released under whitebox/core-geth… then people would never consider upgrading. The only reason they've been using that official-looking org. Is to, in my opinion, deceive. So… 58:15

codeaholicYeah, if somebody is trying to, acquire consensus which does not exist, then I agree with you, that's deception. 58:25

IstoraYeah, I really hope this issue can be resolved. The good news is that, like, it's actually failed, and no one's actually switched. 58:33

LunarYeah, I mean, these sort of things, if you're trying to, like, deceive people into, you know, running software or whatever, it's like, it's self-destructive, because, like, eventually, you know, you… they speak to someone else, and they realize, oh, they were tricked into this thing. And then it's like, they stop believing you. It's like, it's… it would… they would honestly have an easier time converting people if they were just, like. More honest about their opinions and objectives. 58:58

codeaholicAre… 59:01

LunarSo it's like… that's why I'm not so, so worried about this. It's just like… You know, we don't need to call it an attack or whatever. Okay, yeah, they tried to, you know, deceive some people, but there's, like, one guy that was, like, tricked for an hour, and then, like, after speaking briefly, he, he changed his mind. But, but yeah, just, like, just, like, speak openly about these things, don't try to, like, moralize it, or anything. That's, like… That's sort of the perspective I come from for these things. It's… it's annoying if, you know, if… for the people that are tricked or whatever, but it's, like, it's… it's not gonna… it's not gonna convert people. Like, you can't convert people by, like, tricking them or, like, you know. Like, they're not… they're not… they're not proving their case this way, right? Like… For… for their, for their Olympia hard fork. It's like, that's not, that's not convincing anyone, so… Right, right. 59:52

IstoraThe issue is, like, if this had worked, and a lot of people ran the fork that was, like, not reviewed, a ton of random commits, changing the codebase. 1:00:01

LunarWell, there's an analogy between this and Ethereum, right? Like, you would say, like, ETH is where the trick worked. Except, you know. If you're part of this community, if you're part of this community, like, the sort of belief is that, yeah, the trick… the trick isn't gonna work for a lot, you know, it's not gonna… it's not gonna last, right? And so, like, you know, it's… Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like, these sort of actions are self-defeating, and so I'm like, okay, let's try to, let's try to, like, focus on that. 1:00:36

IstoraYep. 1:00:37

LunarWhere are you snap. 1:00:38

codeaholicSo, like, are you still in the server? Or, like, were you banned? Because I saw some conflicting messages there, like, seemingly, one was saying you were banned, and then I'm not sure if you were added back or not, so… Are you still able to communicate with, Olympia people? 1:00:59

IstoraNo, I'm banned from their new Discord. They didn't tell me why. I think just because I disagree and I'm outspoken against what they're doing. 1:01:10

codeaholicThey… they disputed the idea of… of, like… like, what you're disputing about how they rolled out their client update. They… they dispute the narrative there, so… I think that I saw, like, that there was a website floating around that describes what happened, but I don't know if that's… like, the official description, it's… 1:01:33

IstoraYikes. 1:01:33

codeaholicDev… 1:01:35

IstoraYeah, this is the… the report that I'll link in the description. 1:01:40

codeaholicOh, my bad, if that's the one you're talking about. Okay. 1:01:42

IstoraYep. If there's anything in this report that they dispute, I'm open to updating it or changing it, but they've completely stopped any communication. So… 1:01:53

codeaholicInteresting. I'm still in that server, and… 1:01:56

IstoraAll of these things are… 1:01:57

codeaholicso far. 1:01:58

IstoraYeah, all of these things are pretty well documented. And I think, quite… indisputable claims that I've made in this thing, like… please do,

1:02:12CVE claims and auditing core-geth

1:02:12

KevinSo, like, what, one of their main, main things they contest, and, Ronin has just contested this over and over and over in the server, is that the CVEs are not patched. Can we confirm here on the call that, yes, in fact, those CVEs are worked out, and core-geth v1.12.23 is perfectly safe and stable to run? 1:02:38

IstoraBut we can. 1:02:39

codeaholiclook at it and confirm for the next call, but not yet, since I just found out about this stuff. 1:02:45

KevinOh, no, I mean Istora. 1:02:48

IstoraI can tell you what… inform me, and what I believe to be the case, based on my limited use of… Agentic tooling on the two diffs and the claims made, and all of these claims are linked in the report. And, as far as we can tell. All of the claims are incorrect. In that the CVEs… the CVEs were patched, and have been patched. The CVE that was not patched is not applicable to ETC. It's about blob transactions, which ETC does not have, so there's no need to patch that CVE, which is CVE-2026-22868. And there's a GraphQL thing that was not a CVE, but also not a critical bug that he talked about. So, the claim made in the report is that the… the release that was made by… Ronin? Does not fix anything. in the existing August release. does not fix anything exploitable in the Argos release. 1:04:09

LunarThat's… that's good to know. 1:04:10

KevinAds, those things. 1:04:12

IstoraYeah, and what it does do, and this is the… this is the crazy part, right? It's… it was called a security fix that didn't fix anything, but what it did do is change the… the… the way the protocol reaches consensus by adding MESS, and also changing the boot nodes. So… This is, like, when you call something a security fix that doesn't fix things, but actually does other things. To me, that doesn't seem very… transparent. 1:04:38

codeaholicIt's not, it's a code smell, so that if that is indeed the case, yeah, that would be a code smell, for sure, so I will take a look at this as well. 1:04:48

LunarRegardless, what we should do is definitely look, definitely look at the core-geth protocol, because one of the things I am worried about, like, is there some sort of bug? Is there some sort of, like, actual CVE that can cause nodes to go down, or like… Like, maybe there's an infinite Ethereum mint in the core-geth thing, it would be… that would be crazy, but probably not. Should we, like, really, like, you know, fully, like, audit the, the core-geth? Oh. 1:05:13

codeaholicThat's an ongoing thing, too, so, like, there's… there might not be a CVE today, but, you know, who knows, next week, or, like, next year, because… 1:05:20

LunarYeah, well, we should look… we should look at that seriously, like, but, you know… 1:05:25

IstoraWe are constantly running… We're constantly running forward security scanning on the repo, including with, like, the latest, Frontier models of AI. 1:05:36

LunarBut yeah, but specifically, have we ever done, like, specifically a full audit? Like, what… when was the last time someone did that? Boom. 1:05:43

IstoraYeah, I mean. 1:05:43

Lunarwith these? 1:05:44

IstoraThese things… these things would be great, and I… 1:05:48

LunarMaybe I'll do that, if no one else does, maybe I'll do that. 1:05:53

IstoraIf you're willing to do that, that'd be great. 1:05:55

LunarBecause I wasn't sure, like, is the stuff he says about the CVEs true? Like, there's probably something, like, there's probably some non-trivial stuff there, like… 1:06:05

IstoraWell, we checked, and according to the current maintainer and… I've also double-checked with the tools at my disposal. I'm not a core developer, neither is Chris Mercer, so… for him to make those claims is… I don't know. He… he can claim these things, but based on the evidence, it seems they're not true, is what I'm saying. 1:06:29

LunarYeah, I mean, I believe that, but just, like, in general, like, what are the odds, like, there's something that can cause, like, nodes to crash or something like that? Like, it's like a big codebase, so, like, we should find, like… 1:06:39

Istoraedition. 1:06:40

LunarWe should go through it. It's a very big code. 1:06:42

Kevindatabase. 1:06:44

Istorarecommendation from this thing would be… Or nodes. And that's part of the whole Triforce thing, to try and encourage people to run alternative clients, not just core-geth. I think, like, the current version of core-geth, Argos, has fixed all of the known vulnerabilities. And this new release does not. In fact, it actually adds regressions that I'm not gonna make public, but… Chris Mercer's probably aware of them if he's running LLMs, and compares the diffs, like, there are things fixed in Argos that are not in this release that he made, and he actually introduced some additional problems. But the wider concern is… Should one guy who's got zero history of maintaining clients have the ability to just vibe code 200 commits in a weekend and push it as a security update, and have all of the node operators use this software that's not been tested in production yet? I think the answer to that is no. Yep. I think it's clear that should not happen. And that was the whole argument of not putting core-geth… So, a bit of background to this. There was a pull request on the website to try to update the link to core-geth from… etclabscore to this rogue core-geth. repository on Ethereum Classic, and the whole argument that they were making is that, oh, it's just one guy, he can do what he wants. But Diego has, like, a track record in the space. He's been working on clients for 6 years. He's previously employed by ETC Cooperative. There are limited resources, and yes, there's… it'd be great if there were more eyes and more developers on these things, but Diego is, like, the best guy that we have right now to be working on this stuff. And their main argument is that, oh, it's only one guy, so we should put it in this repo. 1:08:39

codeaholicThe majority of the nodes… 1:08:41

IstoraNice job. 1:08:41

codeaholicOh, yeah. 1:08:43

Istoradeep. Kind of… completely undermined their original rationale of that pull request by what's happened this weekend. Like, having Chris Mercer push all of these commits without testing, straight into production, and then pushing an update. That is the whole thing that they were complaining about. So, that's why I closed that pull request. Because, like, there needs to be oversight if we do move to that, and that's not what happened. And I also, I'd like to question, again, the higher-ups of the organization allowing this, what I regard as a kind of… impersonation thing, with the official core-geth-looking client being used by one guy to push this update. So, I would highly recommend, like… Read that review, judge for yourself. Look at the incident report, and then look at my recommendations to the org admins, and If any of these are unreasonable, then… please get in touch. Like, we need to have a discussion about this, because the way things are going, it's getting just increasingly escalated, and I don't know what… 1:09:58

codeaholicare, are… Are most of the nodes using the ones, the client that was maintained by Diego until now? 1:10:05

IstoraYeah, yeah. There's presently… less than 1%. I think there's, there's, like, so, 3… three of the nodes that are using the rogue fork are boot nodes, which are operated by… they're hard-coded into the client, and they basically… are the first nodes that anyone using that client will connect to, and they're needed to basically ground the rest of the peer-to-peer discovery. So there's 3 boot nodes that are running it. There are 3 nodes that look like the ones that are very quickly spun up, so it seems that 6… nodes are currently the infrastructure of the guys behind this rogue fork. And then there are 3, like, hobbyist-looking nodes. And that's it. So basically, it seems like only 3 people are still running that node. If you are listening to this and you're running 1.13 from ethereumclassic/core-geth. Personally, I'd recommend you switch back to using etclabscore/core-geth. And at that point, like, no one else is using those nodes. But yeah, there are 530 nodes in total. and only… three of them seem to be naturally, quote, unquote. upgraded into this ethereumclassic/core-geth. So… And the important thing is none of the large mining pools have switched, because that's the real big danger with this MESS thing, of having mining pools produce blocks on different consensus mechanisms. And… it blows my mind that they'd be doing something so reckless at this point, just because… we disagree on Olympia. Because that's what this is really all about. 1:11:56

codeaholicYeah, yeah, I agree with that. But I will have to review all of this, like, will you be able to provide the links to those things you mentioned, like the report and all that, so I can review them? Because I just want to do my homework? 1:12:09

IstoraAbsolutely, I'll add that into the community call. Notes. 1:12:14

codeaholicOkay. 1:12:17

IstoraAnd yeah, I encourage listeners to judge for themselves. I'm not saying, like. do this or do that, just, like, understand the situation, and I think it's clear what this was, and… you can draw your own conclusions.

1:12:35Forks, funding and the org admins

1:12:35

codeaholicIf in the worst case we do determine that a decision has to be made, like, what are the possibilities? I still maintain hope that we can synthesize the best of Olympia. Elysium, which y'all know now, like, what I bring to the table, the best of fashion, and then just all build together, you know? And then it's… and then it's not a problem of only one maintainer, because ironically, the one maintainer in this case supporting the vast majority of the nodes kind of obviates that argument anyway, but… in this case, we would still be able to bring more people onto the team, right? So, I don't know, maybe I'm too much of an optimist. 1:13:14

IstoraWell, I… I would love to be… building, together with people, instead of spending hours writing reports about these kind of incidents. But yeah, it's… it's draining. It's quite draining. It takes more effort to… like… inform people about what's going on than it does to… you know, create this… problem in the first place, so… 1:13:47

codeaholicHave the GitHub admins reached back out to you at all to, like, acknowledge any messages or anything? 1:13:52

IstoraWell… I have reached out earlier, just a few hours ago, so hopefully they'll get back to me. They are unfortunately quite unresponsive. That's another problem that I hope this incident can try and resolve somehow, but… Yeah, the only… the only org admin, that's active is Cody, and he's… basically pushing for this. 1:14:17

codeaholicWell, I will… I will review all of the code changes from the client that was rushed out to see, like, what would be there, if anything, and then I'll review everything that you provide to see if we just have to, like, get to a… kind of, like, a conclusion state of saying… you know, like, with people's reputations on the line and things like that, like, this is the case, and see what people have to say about it, but I think since some of us that are more in the fray are, like, at least relatively public-facing. I think this will be, like, a worthwhile way to do it, too, to just you know, try to set the stage for, like, an actual conversation with all of the people who are involved, and say, like, oh, you're… you're a so-and-so company, or, like, you're so-and-so person in this space, what is your perspective? But, like, that might be the hard part, right, to get everybody on a call or something. If you're banned and all that, I can try my best, since I'm in both servers, but… Yeah, maybe, like, opening up a GitHub issue to summarize things would be useful. 1:15:21

IstoraYeah, I wish that… that path was open still, but I fear that. Essentially… things have kind of… 1:15:32

LunarQuite… yeah. If they want to run their own chain, like, there's nothing we can do. Like, they want to fork, like, that's the beauty of these things. If they have a better idea. if they have, like, a better philosophy of how to run it, it's like, that's… that's their prerogative. We can't force anyone to… to use it, so… 1:15:50

codeaholicIt just, it just sucks to lose those. 1:15:52

Lunardata transport. 1:15:55

codeaholicIt would suck to lose the name of the Ethereum Classic repo, even. 1:16:01

LunarYeah, well, I mean, Ethereum Classic has already lost this name once, right? Like, we've already lost the name once, but it's like, okay, we're gonna lose it. It's like… I mean, you know, it's like, it's not a big deal, you know, not a big deal. But, yeah, it's like, these things will happen. There's probably gonna be other forks, right? This isn't the first fork that, that happened. I think this is… this is… this is gonna be, like, a very, very minor… a very minority fork, like, it's, it's basically just these three guys running it, so, like, it's, you know, it's really up to them. 1:16:32

codeaholicDidn't they basically fail, though, Istora? Like… 1:16:35

IstoraRight, it's not 3, I think. 1:16:38

LunarHow many? Is 2? Just these two places? 1:16:40

IstoraJust two guys. Well, even Cody, on a… he's claiming that he wants to remain neutral on this, so… I… 1:16:50

LunarSo it's like the lone martyr fighting against the, fighting against the entire, entire establishment. But yeah, but it's like, he has to, he has to prove his point, but I don't think he's successful at proving his point, so… I don't think this is gonna be a successful fork. It'll be… it'll be a fork, and it'll probably die off. But but I mean, his basic argument is that, developer… developers need funding. Or… it's sort of like, you know… like, one of the reasons why, let's say, like, Ethereum Classic price is low compared to, like, some of these more corporate coins or whatever is, like, there's… there's actual, like, develop… there's, like, a serious interest in making, like, you know, these corporate chains viable or whatever. There's, like. There's, like, a CEO or a developer team that gets paid directly in proportional to, like, how many protocols they deploy on-chain and whatever. And so Ethereum Classic doesn't have that, there's no alpha tax. And they're sort of living in this reality where Ethereum beat Ethereum Classic, and they're sort of… it's sort of mimicking what Vitalik and the other guys did to Ethereum Classic. And… and so in this sort of version of reality, maybe what… maybe they're gonna be successful, maybe, you know, maybe they're gonna do… like, like, if you believe that Vitalik and the others beat Ethereum Classic, and, like, Ethereum Classic is just gonna die off, then maybe… maybe you'd sort of try to mimic that with this second. With the second sort of fork, and it would go, like, a similar way. But, but I think they're gonna be surprised. I don't think, like, their ideology is right. I don't know, does that sort of make sense? It's like… like, what they're doing is quite similar to what Vitalik and sort of, like, the official Ethereum people did to Ethereum Classic at first. Like, that's sort of, like, the analogy, I think. Like, except in this case, it's like, it's much weaker, because there's, because, I guess, like, it already happened once, like, the community sort of, like, it was, like, more pure, I guess. I don't know, I don't know, that's sort of my perspective. I don't know if that makes sense. 1:18:55

IstoraYeah, I'm… I'm not sure if they… we definitely agree the philosophy is different, and we are motivated by different things, I think. I agree that funding is a problem. like, I don't disagree with the premise that developers should be funded. The question is, how should they be funded? And should we be forking the protocol to try to tax miners in a way that is centralizing, with some DAO and a… a limited liability company created by the authors of the same fork… proposal that get to control where the money goes? Doesn't sound very decentralized to me. Like, and that's the whole pushback from the start, so… if that's where the philosophical difference lies, and they want to do a fork. As you say, like, that's the beauty of blockchains, and they can go ahead with that. But, yeah, it's like, what happens to the name Ethereum Classic? And… What happens to the community assets that, over a decade, we've all together worked on under shared assumptions? And why is it that one guy can just come up and… you know… take that name, stick his own donation address on it, and then… basically… start… saying the… like, this is my project now. Which… I don't think it's fair. 1:20:32

codeaholicWell, if Cody is an admin, and if he cares then… seems like he's the deciding factor here, so the determination for me would be, like, what utility am I bringing or building? And then, what are the facts around, like, the client being rushed out? And also, like, if it was, distributed under, like, a… a commentary that is just not accurate about, like, it being for security and all that, like you were mentioning, and then it not actually being for security, or… being for security, but with extras, you know, so I have to review all of this, but yeah, I mean, if Freebird doesn't actually care. About, like, you know, what is the actual truth of all this, and… and whatever, that's a problem, but… if Cody cares, that's fine. So I'm gonna just do my review of all of this stuff, and then talk with Cody some more and see. He's been pretty nice. So far. I mean, they've both been pretty nice to me in the… in the Discord, at least. But, 1:21:33

KevinI think another issue with the whole core-geth release was that it states in the README that this release of core-geth is the last release, and then it asks node operators to then migrate to another node implementation, or client implementation, Fukuii. But the reality is that Classix has already pledged to maintain core-geth for at least the foreseeable future, so core-geth isn't going anywhere. But in their README, it says this is sunsetting, and once it does, please switch over to our new client developed by them, which is the one that was a fork of the Mantis client from IOHK. Which is just, not true, because the client is still going to be maintained by Classix. 1:22:35

IstoraYep, that's right. And all of this just doesn't feel right to any, like, objective observer, and I think it's… it's on Cody to try to take a neutral position on this, and realize that his role as an administrator is more important than any particular like… temporary internal debate that we're having right now. Like, if he wants to maintain his credibility as a neutral curator of this project, he needs to make the right administration decisions, because he's been put in this position, whether he likes it or not. Unfortunately, you can't remain neutral when the resources that you are responsible for are being used to do things that are quite blatantly against the ethos of the project, and just… against general… you know. it's not on, basically. And I think everyone can see that, so to try and play sitting on the fence at this stage is just… it's not going to help you in the long term, I think. And now is possibly the best time to, you know, an off-ramp has arrived. Maybe we can actually start building things again next year. We're not gonna stop, so… like, this Hail Mary attempt has failed. And this is a really good time to… like, move on from this whole drama, and we can finally start building things again, so… the invitation is there for Cody, whether he wants to take it or not, like… we're still gonna keep… opposing Olympia, that's not gonna stop, and we're still gonna… maintaining core-geth. So… Yeah, you can't remain neutral on this kind of thing, unfortunately. 1:24:31

codeaholicIsn't there, like, somebody mentioned, funding being a contentious thing, so isn't there, like, already still… a pile of grants money, like, just available for funding, dev. 1:24:43

IstoraYeah, so on the last call, we had Bitmain, sorry, ETC Grants DAO, which is funded by Bitmain, on the call, and they gave the explicit support for Classix. who will be continuing to maintain core-geth. So, the funding for development has more or less being secured. Obviously we can't say things are done until things are done, but as much as they… can, at this stage, I believe they have, shown their support, and I… I'm very confident that that will materialize into funding for development for a number of years. 1:25:25

codeaholicOh, that's cool. 1:25:33

KevinSo, core-geth isn't going anywhere. 1:25:37

IstoraNope. Well then, yeah. 1:25:40

codeaholicWe would need to, revisit, like, the… the recent, distributed client to review the code, because that's supposedly core-geth as well, so… we will at some point need to make a decision and, like, include the admins in this, because otherwise, it's kind of misleading people into pulling down the wrong… 1:26:01

IstoraYeah. 1:26:02

codeaholicIf it is indeed the wrong one, so… 1:26:04

IstoraThe longer… the longer this repo remains online, the more… like… people are going to be misled. So, the only person that has the ability and is active right now is Cody. So… he really needs to step up. 1:26:23

codeaholicWere you banned… were you banned as a result of this issue, or, like, beforehand? 1:26:30

IstoraNo, I was banned, after the last call, I think, because we… I can't remember the exact timeline, but yeah, they're really not happy with the fact that we've managed to secure funding for core-geth development, and Diego is not gonna go away. Because they were kind of relying on that for them to push Olympia forward, in my opinion. So… I've been communicating with them via that, or Discord. I got kicked out, for no reason, specifically. But I have been communicating with Cody via DMs, so at least he is still responsive, to some extent. Those communications are not always the most cordial, but at least they're there, and… I think… after all of this, I think Cody can still salvage, like. I… I think he can still… play an authoritative role in this ecosystem, if he… if he acts in a way that… I think is… accordant with the responsibilities that he's been given right now. So… It's not something that you can just sit back and watch. 1:27:56

LunarI mean, hey, I think they both can. I think, you know, if everyone wants to, like, join up again, be part of the same chain, like, I think that's… That would be the best option, but… It's… honestly, I think… I think we're honestly spending, like, too much time on this. 1:28:16

IstoraFair enough. I didn't want to spend too much time… you know, it's… it's kind of… it's drama, you know, people like to… 1:28:23

LunarYeah, yeah, I mean, it's honestly, like, the only dramatic thing happening, so it's like, you know, I don't mind it. 1:28:30

codeaholicWell, I mean, if there's links changing, if there's clients being distributed. 1:28:35

LunarYeah, people should be able to control that. when this started a few months ago, like, no one was talking about it, you know, it was, it was just… it was, like, Dirty… Dirty Ruski was, like, the… only the conspiracy theorist, like, only he… only he was able to, only he was able to see what is… what's going on. and revealed it to, to the rest of us. But now it's, like, now it's pretty clear, like, they're in the minority now, and so, like, they, like, I'm maybe more sympathetic to them now, now that they're, like… now that it's, like, it's literally everyone against these guys, so it's like, okay, let's… like, you know, let's give them some breathing room. They shouldn't be doing all that, like, scammy, dirty stuff, but it's like… Okay, whatever, whatever, some drama, some drama. 1:29:23

codeaholicYeah, I'll be busy reviewing all of this, but I'm very eager to. I have a lot of time next week, so… just a few days to, to sift through all of this should be all that I need, but, before, before I… I end up, leaving in a bit, sorry, I just wanted to double check. Earlier, you were asking a question, I think… were you asking about the message sizes and, like, if those are benchmarked to determine, like, which sizing would be the most optimal? I think that's what you were getting at, right? 1:29:54

IstoraThere's a few things, I guess, one being, like, if you wanted to… record a signature. Of something. Like, how long is that proof? And how much storage space does that take on chain, for example? Then you… How much compute? is required. Do that validation. In a node. And let's say we have, like. We want to have some target hardware that can support ETC. Let's say a Raspberry Pi, for example. I don't think a Raspberry Pi can do it right now, but let's just say that. So if the target is for a Raspberry Pi to be able to validate blocks on ETC, How many of these validations per block can fit on that hardware? And how much gas should it consume to do that validation? And from there, we can work backwards and determine what the correct pricing for that operation should be. 1:30:53

codeaholicOh yeah, okay, so then, yeah, then the pricing in this case is affected by the… sizing there, I think. Okay, yeah, I'll look into this for next time. I did not benchmark this. Like, the values that I picked for, like, the base cost, base cost amount of gas is just what seemed reasonable, or, like. Just basic, but… I'll bet… I'll do some benchmarking to see. 1:31:16

IstoraYeah, to take it, like, an extreme example, imagine if there was a precompile that… like… re-rendered a video, or something. Like, something crazily expensive, and you can only do it once per block. And, like, obviously there's a limit to how much a Raspberry Pi can do in one block, and how much compute it can actually do to validate those transactions, so… There's, like, a hard limitation on how many, and how much, and… yeah, just, like, how you figure out the gas cost for a particular precompile. 1:31:51

codeaholicYeah, in this case, what it's doing right now is it's just applying, like, a tiny… adjustment that's based on the length. Of the input, but that may not necessarily be the most optimal, so this is the… role of benchmarking, and I have a benchmark, I've just not been running it, so… I will include this as collecting more data for next time around. 1:32:17

IstoraAwesome. Well, we are at 90 minutes, which is longer than usual, so unless I… as always, I'll open the floor if there's any final topics people want to talk about before we wrap up, but other than that…

1:32:32What does decentralization mean for ETC?

1:32:32

codeaholicI guess I would just want to leave one nugget. Like, I've noticed a recurring theme. Across a few sessions, which is, like, this topic of decentralization coming up, and like, what does it mean for ETC to be decentralized? What does it mean, if… If it's becoming more centralized, like, is having… the DAO that receives base fee, that sends it to an LLC is that centralization. So I would just, want to encourage, like, a continued thinking about this, because when considering this present issue that we are… talking about right now, or just generally in these sessions, the present issue being that of like, sudden changes to links, or, like, attempts to… you know, grab a client or something like that. How do we… how do we deal with that in a decentralized world? Like, what does it mean to really be decentralized, and… what does ETC think about decentralization? Like, does ETC think… like, if you were to query it, would it say that it is… basically just… the technology itself, or… it should also pertain to process, because, like. Inevitably, as we continue in developing, you know, we will not be able to say that Istora is decentralized, or that I, codeaholic, am decentralized, or so on, like. It's a very complicated… subject, right? Like, we… there's only one Istora, there's only one codeaholic. So on and so forth, so… I don't know, like, what the right answer is right now, because I have to think about it, but… I think it'll be an interesting one, and it's also gonna be interesting to observe if something as decentralized as ETC, which it is decentralized. If it can overcome this type of challenge that we're observing right now with, like. Olympia. So, very interesting, I just want to put that out there to see, like, can we get more brains paying attention, and maybe next session, or… or if you guys want to talk about it more now, like, happy to stick around more too, but… like, the technology is decentralized. Can a decentralized technology have process? That is also decentralized. that protects itself, I guess is the type of question that comes to mind as I observe all of these things, and try to contribute in this space. 1:34:53

LunarMy sort of instinct is, as soon as you have a process, you know, you're basically starting to have, like, a government or a group of people. So it's like, you have to… we have to constantly be aware, like, no processes, no official anything. No, no rules. Beyond… nothing beyond the code. That's, I guess… Oh, I'm. 1:35:16

codeaholicI'm not a purist, but I respect purity, I guess, if people are like. you know, like, pure, like, zero process, but yeah, then, in this case, what about the call? Like, what would be different about the call versus no call? 1:35:32

LunarWell, like, the way how I view these calls, and, like, I think they should… it's just, like, a fan club of people who like the coin, you know? And there's a risk that they become something, like, more than this. And that's like, we have to… you know, there's a risk it could become a government. There's a risk the developers could become a government, there's a risk that the large investors could become a government, and it's like. It's like, no, no, we have to… we have to be willing to… to keep our virtue. 1:36:00

codeaholicI don't think ETC is, like, against a government, or… I don't think decentralization is against a government either. I mean… Solar panels are decentralized, and… governments love them because it takes load off of, a centralized… energy production, but… I don't know, I'm not, like, I'm not a purist, so I think if something is becoming more complex at some point, some kind of… process or system exists to manage the complexity. So, if ETC is a complex… construct and increasing in complexity, then… we need brains that can handle that complexity, right? And those brains tend to… need to exist inside of a space or process of some kind, so… 1:36:47

LunarThe moment, the moment. 1:36:48

codeaholicFine. 1:36:49

Lunarto make it a process, it starts to die. Like, that's the moment it starts getting so-called, like, regulated, or it loses its decentralization. As soon as it's formalized, it's like, it's on its way out. 1:37:03

codeaholicDo you think, like, one thing Istora mentioned that is ongoing is the security scanning of the repo. Do you define that as a process? 1:37:13

LunarI think, like, these small, like, these sort of… I'm talking, like, more sort of broadly, like, you know, if there was, like, an official community call, or, like, official, like, meeting, or official developer group, then, you know, like, the risk is more serious, but, 1:37:28

IstoraYou know. 1:37:29

LunarThat's sort of… that's how I would put it. 1:37:34

IstoraYeah, I guess the closest thing to quote-unquote formalized system is the ECIP process. Which… is also not official. Like, again, nothing can be official. But… even that is… 1:37:55

LunarWell, it's, it's interesting. 1:37:56

IstoraIf people… if people don't want to run the plant, if people don't want to… ECIP approval system. To run the software. So… Miners still can decide any kind of version of the software they want to. And it's… it's only, like, a suggestion from the developers that we think this is a good idea. Please let us know what you think, and if so, we can… build it for you, kind of thing. So, there's no, like… top-down… 1:38:28

codeaholicIsn't… isn't there a strong limitation on that, though? Because, like, no matter what, you still have to be able to intake and output the correct blocks, like, the right shapes and all of that. So, like, if it was just a completely Wild West… there wouldn't even be, an ETC to talk about or to refer to, right? So, like, how does that work? Or, or, 1:38:49

IstoraRight. 1:38:50

codeaholicDo you know how that works currently? 1:38:52

IstoraWell, it's about balancing different interests in the community and understanding what everyone is willing to run, and largely. In these, kind of, typically conservative. things like Bitcoin and ETC, like. Typically, it's just what is running now, and there needs to be a good reason to change that. and… those reasons sometimes exist. And sometimes there's not a lot of… opposition to certain upgrades, like we've seen in the past with just, like, increasing EVM compatibility. That's typically what people generally agree upon. Miners, developers, and, like, the purist philosophers all agree that it's not really breaking code is law if we're just adding additional functionality that will make the chain more secure because more people can deploy to it, for example. On the wider topic of, like. decentralization. I highly recommend you guys read an article that myself and Donald co-wrote on the ETC website under Why Classic Decentralism? And this goes quite deeply into this topic. And it's been a while since I've re-read it, but… It's… a really good primer, I think, for a wider… discussion on this topic, and why, like, ETC is in this really unique position, basically. And it is one of our main strengths that we don't have a foundation or a central leadership to make these decisions. And we have this kind of… natural evolution, where people can propose things, but we just debate, and we decide. And there's no one at the top that can tell us which way to go? And that provides not just, like, I think in the long run… in the long run, better decision making. Because if something bad is proposed. everyone invested in ETC is really motivated to stop it, which is what I think we're seeing in Olympia. And… we always act quite cautiously, and for something like a blockchain project, I think it's better to act cautiously over time, instead of, like, jump on the next shiny thing that might, you know, break things for everyone. And to me, that's… something that only Bitcoin and ETC have, because they don't have this, like, central foundational decision-making thing. And they're largely held to… whatever… the miners can be convinced to run. Which I think is a good bar to have for this kind of project. 1:41:31

codeaholicNot necessarily whatever they can be convinced to run, right? Because, like, it still has to… append… completed work to… the corpus that would be called ETC, you know. 1:41:43

IstoraAgreed. 1:41:44

codeaholicshape. 1:41:45

IstoraBut miners would not be convinced to run that, right? 1:41:50

codeaholicI hope not. 1:41:51

IstoraWell… 1:41:52

codeaholicbe here. 1:41:52

IstoraThat's… that's kind of the point. Ultimately decide what they're mining. mechanism is extremely difficult to penetrate, and if some, like, random project came along and said, oh yeah, we're gonna make the blocks, like, 2GB each, they're gonna be like, wait, no. And they're just not gonna run it, so… the… the checks and balances that exist in Ethereum Classic are very strong, and that's a good thing. And I think, like, any movement towards, like, increasing or reducing the influence of each of those, like. Legs of the stool. But tend towards more centralization, and that's why it's super important to… to not have things like protocol-layer treasuries that… crown certain… groups the right to distribute funds. It should be on a level playing field in a purely natural evolutionary process where people survive and thrive based on whether they perform, not better on… based on… based on whether they're close to the guys that call the shots. 1:43:07

LunarAgree, big agree. 1:43:09

IstoraThe other benefit is that it makes it very difficult to capture. Like, sovereign-grade censorship resistance. Means that, like, sovereign institutions are gonna try to… manipulate those who do call the shots, if they exist. implementing something like Olympia. Does crown certain people the ability to call the shots, and that just makes the whole chain. Subject to their capture. And that's something we want to avoid, I think.

1:43:54Wrap-up and scheduling

1:43:54

IstoraOkay, shall we wrap things up at this point? Really enjoyed that last bit of the discussion, this is, like, my personal passion. And understanding how the… the dynamics of decentralized systems actually operate. and try to ensure that ETC follows them in a way that it's sustainable over the long term is, like, really why I'm interested in this project in the first place, so… Let's continue that discussion. 1:44:23

codeaholicYeah, it's an amazing technology, so, like, being able to preserve having it, for me, like, having a layer of compute that is ethereal, like, always available. is very, very exciting. Certainly one might consider, like, oh, what kind of, like, bad applications could exist, perhaps, but… I don't know why you would waste cycles when you could instead consider what kinds of good applications could exist in such a world, but yeah, I think, very interesting technology, so… keeping it, open how it is, or how it has been, and accessible. I wouldn't say, like, not to continue to improve it or anything, I think it should continue to improve, but… it's a great platform, so, definitely… I think it's not bad to keep talking about some things, or, like, being repetitive on, like, the core ideas from time to time to just revisit, and… inculcate… I think I said that word right. Inculcate more people in the mindset, I guess. 1:45:26

IstoraYep. 1:45:27

codeaholicOh yeah, it was awesome talking with you guys again, and really enjoyed it, and hope to, talk with you guys again soon, and hope you have a wonderful… weekend. 1:45:38

IstoraThanks, codeaholic, for joining. 1:45:39

Kevinthat this time slot worked better for you, codeaholic? 1:45:47

codeaholicOh, yeah, this one's good for me. How about for you guys? Is this one good? 1:45:53

LunarThis is okay, if it can be a few hours earlier, that would be even better, but, like, one or two hours earlier, but it's better, yeah. 1:46:01

KevinOkay? 1:46:03

IstoraYeah, I think it's, we'll see how much resources are available, but we could potentially do this call every week at some point, and just, like, have different time slots, so different groups can… also participate, based on the time zone. This is kind of like a sweet spot. For everyone at the moment. And I think in the next two weeks, unfortunately, it might have to be at a different time, because, unless someone else wants to host it, of course, I'll be in Europe at that time. So, again. We will try to get… more calls and more time zones that work for all of us. And I think I'm really loving that we have this cadence to continue, and we're getting, increasing participation on these calls, so that's really exciting. And yeah, thank you for all taking part in this call, and all the calls you have done, and will do in future. And on that, I think, we will wrap things up for this, this community call, and we'll see you in two weeks' time. 1:47:18

KevinSweet. 1:47:20

IstoraAlright, thanks everyone for joining. Take care. 1:47:23

codeaholicThanks, have a good one. 1:47:24

KevinAlright, bye-bye. 1:47:25

IstoraBye-bye!

Decentralism

Key Points Discussed

Introductions

Agenda

AI Summary

Welcome and Introductions

Clarity Act, Markets and Tron

Proof of Work and the Quantum Threat

ML-DSA Precompile: Early Gas Results

The Rogue core-geth Release

CVE Claims and Auditing core-geth

Forks, Funding and the Org Admins

What Does Decentralization Mean for ETC?

Wrap-up and Scheduling

Action Items

Full Transcript