Vitalik on Bitcoin Maximalism

0:03for a long time i think it since 2012 or 2011 and he he understands perfectly well why all these technologies are created and what are the the major goals like cross minimization but he systematically chooses 0:20to go in another way in a way of centralization and he believes that believing in trust minimization and and defending it uh strongly is a little bit ridiculous and i think that is and 0:40then he believes that bitcoin and etc uh individuals who who defend these principles with a lot of energy and strongly he believes that we are we are a little bit stupid in a way um and and one 0:59one one argument that he always had when we were debating with nick sabo and and vlad zampir and and vitalik and me about trust minimization he he used to say things like okay you don't need um 80 1:16000 nodes to run the the blockchain with a thousand is okay so he always he always minimizes you know the the strength and and and that 1:35cypherpunks have to always go in the direction of decentralization he believes it's not necessary he believes he believes in things like okay when people don't understand these things so if you do adapt that is a little bit centralized it doesn't matter another example of that is um um 1:56when he wrote the article and his opinion his philosophy of weak subjectivity that's a perfect example because uh these systems or bitcoin and atc need to have subjectivity minimized um in a very extreme way it's the only way to 2:15be uh decentralized uh and if you add a little bit like he says of or weak subjectivity it's just it's just a never-ending path where you end up with total centralization and i think that's the path of ethereum now he went in one direction and 2:34now he guided the the community in in a totally opposite direction and and i think it's pretty pretty um [Music] likely that ethereum is going to end up as a totally centralized system in a few years in the long run so 2:52i know this is all to to to to to show that even that he understands both sides and maybe that's the reason why he did such a good job in explaining um the position of what is really his opponent now which are who are maximalist in 3:11fact i think he did he's the one he's the person who baptized people who believe in in these principles and cyberpunks as maximalists yes 3:34then given that he does understand it and he chose to reject it what is what is the thing that made him decide to do that do you think i 3:57mean yes you could say okay it's not it might it might be overkill to have full uh decentralization maximism but why even drop it in the first place what's the advantage of not having it other than scalability perhaps is that trade-off that he made it in his own mind 4:17i think it's because um maximalism is the longer way is it's the one that requires more work is the one that um trying 4:34to invent designs that that preserve decentralization and um and um centralization like like nick sabo wrote very well in his article people 4:54should google it and read that article designers of systems they always they always build points of centralization where you need a trusted third party to run that point and therefore the whole system becomes centralized um 5:15because they always have a design problem and they end up choosing the the easy path um i think that um the amos the cypher punk philosophy of trust minimization and only implement things uh if they 5:34they confirm decentralization or they go in the direction of decentralization and they always reject without exceptions any any any introduction to the system that that may may introduce subjectivity or centralization so 5:53i think it's a little bit that that it's easier um where you where you centralize things it's a much easier design if you if you invention 6:12proof of stake it's it's just a convoluted way of designing a system the traditional way that has always existed in humanity um so it's it's in a way it's a little bit of a lazy position but it's also i think and then the other reason 6:29i think is is because and you can see this in all the other projects that were built that are proof of stake for smart contracts um like polka dot and cardano solana it's it they don't they they don't introduce any 6:48any invention but i think that there are projects that they saw the opportunity that this technology can produce billions of dollars of wealth and um it's it's it's uh uh it 7:05creates value for them in the short term to make up a story like avalanche or polka dot or cardano that they're going to be proof of stake because because they save the planet and because proof of work is evil and and 7:23it damages the climate um [Music] and with very convoluted explanations they try to tell everybody that they're very secure and and the insecurities hidden in those very complex systems that they that they have created um but 7:43their coins go up and cardano salan is worth uh 42 billion dollars and cordano is worth 40 billion dollars and the ethereum is worth 415 billion dollars if you're in one the one that is going to migrate to ethereum two so in that 8:00sense if they were looking for um short term uh wealth that was the the right strategy you know the the long path and the difficult path um would have produced would not have to produce this wealth to them so i think that looking for wealth in 8:19the short term and um not really focusing on on decentralization which is difficult is is are the reasons why he has that that way of thinking he's also naturally a central planner i mean the many papers that he has written about um 8:40social things like uh what's this philosophy radicalism or something like that um social radicalism always has a way of thinking that he ha he can he's very intelligent now that he can design 9:00out and and he can design uh justice and he can design fairness and stuff like that so he always tends to be a centralist in that sense philosophically concept 9:19of radical markets yes that he wrote something about that when you see all his work everything that he has written um you can see that he's a person that is the the the 9:37typical central planner central planners when you see you see when they speak etc they always think that it's a matter of getting together 10 geniuses in a university phds and you can design out this problem that they have instead of instead of uh example 9:58work and stuff like that they they want to design equality and if there's if there's a problem in society they believe they can plan it from the center um and i think that the vitalik also has that that profile so 10:17so i would say the the the three reasons are those one that it decentralization is difficult so it's easier to go in the other direction two that um to sell to the world something that it's not but to create billions uh today 10:36we're still in that window where they can these guys they can produce these these fake blockchains and make a lot of money so that's another i think i think that that must be the overarching uh reason and then this last thing that there's people 10:54who are naturally centrist they're naturally especially very intelligent people phd et cetera i know this um they they they think that they can get together in a board meeting and design out these problems centrally so i think those three reasons make vitalik uh 11:14that kind of person and again regarding this article this is this is why i believe that this was clearly uh april fool's joke and he's really criticizing bitcoin everything that he says in the paragraphs is a criticism to be that it's simple that it's not programmable 11:33that it's not complex that you have to go slow uh all these things are things that that are really criticisms of maximum maximalism and bitcoin would add that yeah 11:53especially central planners combined with massive money-making opportunities will find it very difficult to design something in a way that does not benefit themselves and we can see the same pattern for our history whenever you have some privileged class exactly 12:10if you are pfizer you want to sell people the new vaccine even though it's not proven rather than use some a medication has been there for 30 years and and it's proven to to make make something better and um if you are if you own the monopoly 12:29of money you're gonna hate that el salvador decided to adopt bitcoin uh so i think it's it's that's that's the kind of economy that we have here reason to add to your list which is i 12:48i believe um the opinion of vlad zamfir for example is subjectivity is necessary for moral reasons such that the the owners of the protocol can reach in and fix things if they go too wrong yes however i i see that as a flawed position because 13:10you're necessarily going to have to make a decision when to intervene and that itself is a moral burden which is going to necessitate like hurting some groups over others like why should one group have their hack undone where some other group does not and 13:28it's an inherently i guess uh it's going to involve moral problems like nepotism and that kind of stuff yes not do anything and just let the protocol continue yes which 13:48is the difficult part objective yeah yes as humans we always want to to bring good for communities to the world so it's a it's a natural bias a natural impulse and um and 14:05it's very difficult and sometimes to not do that brings more good to humanity than trying to fix things immediately um difficult to think about no it requires more 14:24levels of knowledge um more abstractions in your mind to understand why the path of not reacting immediately to solve something and just let it let the system work because if you let it work it's going to be much better but in the long run um 14:43that requires much more mental work much more knowledge much much more information about history humanity anthropology biology even genetics it's much more marketable to say i am the 15:01hero i'm going to solve this this now like in the dow no we we should do a fork and recover the money of course 95 of the people are going to love that because it's emotionally catching it's immediate solution and and and and you're positioning yourself 15:20like a savior so in in the short term everything is is perfect and everything everything is going to be in favor of that not a lot of support it's it's hard because you lose you have to lose the 15:39three point seven million eight is the eff just forget about them uh um and you have to wait to see the positive effects in the long run um so yeah that 16:02uh free markets if left alone have the ability to um through competition natural selection variation and over burdening an economy whether with regulation might seem like a good idea but 16:20uh in the long run it very rarely tends to be in fact almost certainly will or cause more problems down the line just like subjective interventions in blockchain [Music] i 16:38do see another part in this article that in my opinion is worth mentioning he does [Music] he does some some sort of mirror between the communities between bitcoin community and ethereum community uh 16:59where i think by looking at my beginnings in crypto i think he he is right because [Music] first time when i heard about bitcoin i remember checking it out and finding 17:16out all sorts of stuff bad stuff related to it i even went on deep web and saw the markets there so i think a lot of people didn't uh adopt bitcoin 17:33in the beginning because of this dark uh the dark stuff surrounding it and in 2016 i think ethereum managed to to open 17:53up in a way that people were more more uh engage in learning about crypto and seeing the good parts of it and how it can be used so i do think that the two communities are different and 18:14overall can who can go and talk to governments and talk to people and talk to people in power and propose this technology the blockchain technology without 18:36a figure like vitalik i don't think that mass adoptions mass adoption would have increased so this is what 18:49i wanted to say um a point that was raised that i hadn't really 19:07thought about before which is about the agreeableness of the different communities and i'm just going to read one of the paragraphs because i thought this stood out to me and talking about different types of actors within a cryptocurrency ecosystem that can be malicious 19:25and potentially on on the surface seem like good guys but in reality are trying to scam people or manipulate people and are just bad actors basically but uh the paragraph reads one could stand against all of these actors with a smiling face likely telling 19:44the world when they why they disagree with their priorities but this is unrealistic the bad actors will try hard to embed themselves into your community and at that point it becomes psychologically hard to criticize them with sufficient level of scorn that they will truly require the people you're criticizing are friends of your friends and so a culture that values agreeableness will simply fold 20:04before the challenge and let scammers run freely through the wallets of innocent newbies of why you need disagreeableness and toxicity in a community to weed out bad actors and i think this may be why we see like 20:25think of the number of scams happening in the ethereum ecosystem compared to that bitcoin easier to make scams in the ethereum ecosystem but it's also i think that level of agreeableness and trying to make everyone happy that 20:43uh prevents genuine criticism from being heard when it's needed um 21:06that initial sort of welcoming and happy clappy rainbows and unicorns um culture is great at encouraging people to join and get involved and uh learn about something new but it comes with a price and that is basically 21:26if everyone is sort of peer pressing each other into being nice all the time then it prevents um bad actors from being identified or potential bad actors from being identified uh 21:47he even mentioning he's mentioning that uh bitcoin maximalism practically um helps people who are getting involved in in crypto because the chances if 22:08you buy a bitcoin you you don't buy a scam right you don't buy a product that disappears the next day so um the bitcoin community also of all offers some sort of support for 22:28for 22:28new 22:28investors 23:08trying to uh find some some points to talk about on this joke 23:29would it not be a little bit more obvious and to me a lot of these points seem to be so well put that um there's like yes but this is absurd like it doesn't seem very absurd 23:48to me i understand i understand that i think it was a joke i don't know if it's a joke what was his psychology when he 24:07wrote this or or if it was just um um and he just wrote the article trying to trying to balance in his head both 24:28both sides um debating with him and knowing his opinions and knowing that he acts 24:44and defends the opposite uh ideas um i think that this was an april's maybe it's just his his kind of humor regardless 25:03of the intent and the the way that he's trying to frame it if if we imagine this was not published on april fools and was instead just published on the i don't know some the ethereum classic blog for example and taken at face value this would be a really good piece i 25:22would say so separating who did it and why they did it the piece alone is a very good meme and um it really kind of condenses a lot of the the uh the arguments for maximalism yeah if it were if it were a 25:40seriously written article written by a cypherpunk i would say it's a shallow article i don't think that the topics are developed enough and and and um [Music] and they only and they only show see 26:01a negative no like simplicity of a system and lack of innovation and all those things so it would be a an underdeveloped article and it would be a bad article and it would be if it were if it were written by nobody 26:26would even pay attention to this article but because it's written by vitalik and he loves to position himself as this great thinker and quasi philosopher like a greek philosopher people go and read it and and they think it's amazing so if it were a seriously written article it's 26:46a poor article written by a baby with all the topics under underdeveloped and not not explained well but because it was vitalik and he's the founder of ethereum and here is this threat to bitcoin and because he wrote this article that whoa he's 27:03talking in favor oh my god what level of superration mental and moral uh supervision he has that he can write in favor of the competing system oh my god people i mean he thought he does this he manipulates people like this um so 27:25going back to your point if it were a serious article it's a poorly written article in my opinion i 27:56i see your point i think um it does uh lack a bit of depth and uh he is proving that he as as we started with 28:16he knows both sides yes as an outline he i mean the the list of points from the beginning to the end is a good idea a good list grocery store list of the points of that he has been hearing from real cypherpunks 28:36people who really uh understand the blockchain and why the blockchain is was invented and what are the principles it's it and so he's been hearing all this for many years and and he's been systematically on the other side and acting i mean you can see um where 28:55the human community is where the system is going so it's amply proven that they're going in in the totally opposite direction um in a way i i also thought that this is was a good positioning 29:12piece fool's day and you see and and you see it as a as a genuine article um you could also say that it's a good strategy for ethereum um like 29:33like for etc it's a good strategy for ethereum two to actually happen even though it's a coin and doesn't comply with our principles but we do want ethereum to move away from our position we don't want ethereum one to stay as a proof-of-work system which 29:53is practically identical to etc because that would um permanently put etc lower in the ranks and in value in the blockchain industry if you have this huge network effect so we want them to move away 30:13in a way i praise a lot ethereum on social media and publicly in a way to push them to move away to ethereum 2.0 even even a proof of stake even though i hate purpose take so in the same way this article um 30:31with his influence not he today he is a person of a lot of influence in society simple rudimentary blockchain that is proof of work 30:49and just if he if he says just stay there because my position is the one to be scalable and programmable and had to convince the world to use my my my system for that then in a way it could be also a marketing uh strategy you know it to to to reposition or to make 31:08sure that bitcoin stays as a proof-of-work um system because to make sure that it wouldn't compete with ethereum ii um and i and uh i also thought that at some point that this this guy from ripple chris larson he 31:27started this campaign to to change the algorithm in bitcoin to proof of stake um last week under the under the the argument that proof of work is bad for the for the environment and 31:46all that and maybe this article is a a response to chris larson saying no chris don't be stupid it's better for ethereum proof of stake or ethereum two and ripple for bitcoin to stay as a dirty horrible system simplistic with all all these hooligans 32:05and barbaric people who defend it let's keep them there we don't want them to move to proof of stake but because that would that would compete with us so i i thought that it was also a marketing uh kind of thing like that there 32:25there is like a non-zero chance that uh this whole maybe vitalik did the hard fork purely so that um ethereum classic would be created and he's rooting for a theorem classic this whole time and he's doing everything in his 32:43power to make it more successful including moving ethereum to prove his deck conspiracy theory that he would be secretly in favor of proof of work and etc right no 33:02i don't think would not even be human he would be like a multi-dimensional alien if he would be pursuing that strategy pretty 33:20successful 33:20so 33:20far 33:48input about the reaction that this got in the ethereum ecosystem because i i've not been tracking this a 34:01joke haven't saw anything in the news or something 34:18like that maximalists or shall we say s people will be just sort of dismissing 34:36this as as purely an april fool's joke but uh narrative 35:11attempts to move bitcoin away from proof of stake which was another interesting happening of last week i guess the um i guess the hashtag changed the code was was being used as a means to push that idea and uh i 35:30guess this is something that we should look out for as something that might also come to ethereum classic and in fact all chains that are proof of state sorry proof of work are likely to be demonized as time goes on means to try 35:50and regulate blockchains point about which chain's more likely to survive and provide value and some might say that oh because proof of stake is not going to be regulated it has the ability to survive 36:10long term and because proof of work is is going to be then it has no future but if you take the viewpoint that blockchain shouldn't need permission to exist they should just be able 36:29to exist anyway then it's actually the other way around and proof of work is the only consensus mechanism that has the ability to survive whether or not it 36:44has permission uh did uh did reject a law that was proposed for for banning proof of work so there 37:04isn't any danger from there from europe debate [Music] the proof of work versus the environment debate is 37:22one the proof of work is the only true decentralized consensus mechanism versus any other debate is another war um regarding the the first war you 37:42have this this layered thing in the arguments the simple thing is we need to solve the climate change yes we agree um proof of work uses energy that's bad therefore 38:03stop oh that's the simplistic that's the emotional immediate the he the the the the marketing hero the fake hero kind of argument and and it catches on very quickly because everybody's so brainwashed with climate change um and 38:22that we're going to die tomorrow and when you tell someone overwork uses electricity that's bad the person eats that immediately um uh therefore we have to stop it yes i support 38:40that all that is is this is the simplistic easy to market political thing and 90 percent of the people are going to eat that bait to actually promote 38:58proof of work because miners because of the nature of their business they need lower um electricity costs lower energy costs and because renewal renewable energy is 39:16cheaper per unit they actually invest 70 of their investment in energy in renewable energy which is much more than any country any other industry in the world and proof of work is actually promoting the the 39:36acceleration of the migration to renewable energy so it is actually good for the environment but this alternative explanation which is the truth is so difficult for people to understand yeah yeah they need to understand economics they need to understand why the 39:54business model of miners how it is and why they compete and the fact that they move and and they can move from one place to the other seeking for lower energy costs and they do deals with electricity companies like in quebec um [Music] and stuff like all this is such a long explanation it's so difficult for people to 40:13understand that we have the more or less the same thing as cypherpunk and centralist or decentralism and centralist kind of arguments um so that and they are appealing in that campaign they are appealing to the easy to eat by snowflake um 40:32argument that energy bad stop it good no is it like a caveman kind of argument so i think i guess that the only way the only way that i that i that i see that we can keep defending this is just by continuously arguing and arguing on social 40:51media arguing meaning explaining our arguments now are our logic as much as possible repeat it constantly and just do it we like uh i don't think the work side actually 41:10has to convince anyone it's a it's basically it's at the honey badger stage at this point where it can just do what it wants and it'll continue whether people like it or not it's like it's unstoppable that's kind of the point so yeah it might help to you know save other people the trouble of 41:30investing in technologies that aren't going to go anywhere but i don't think that is actually going to stop yeah that's a good point that's a good point um in a way we shouldn't stress so much because because proof of work is unstoppable and 41:47if it's true that proof of work is a much more secure consensus mechanism that guarantees decentralization then we shouldn't we shouldn't stress so much i think that's a good point it's going to win anyway it's what you're saying yeah yeah it will uh me 42:06personally it's stressing to see chris larson do this campaign and vitalik to continually drain and drill people's minds telling them that proof of stake is more secure and the irony is the only is that proof of stake is a massive 42:25waste of energy a good argument to flip around and use because it's it's not just like energy in a you know 42:45a sense it's literal energy wasting people's time that could be used towards better things and if it's a dead end technology then you could be literally wasting more energy than you are with bitcoin by by spending this time on on purpose waste 43:03waste energy like you say and destroy the environment because actually it's the proof of work people that are the environmentalists exactly that that's that's that's the that's 43:23what really like makes me cross not that that when when these guys they're so influential in society and like chris larson and vitalik and kurt and charles hoskins and no but he has such a big voice i mean any of his videos has like from a hundred 43:40thousand to half a million views and he's drilling all these lies falsehoods and and trying to make everybody believe that proof of work is against the environment when the truth is exactly the opposite it's in favor it's it's good for the environment oh 43:56my god eventually um set things straight you know you can only hide from reality for so long eventually i should adopt that philosophy just just relax 44:15and wait true then that's what we have to do don't rely on marketing whereas the other 44:35team need marketing and they need all that billions of dollars to continue the gravy yeah to construct and maintain the lie proof 44:53of stake and proof of work um i think that um i've been i always say that and and my mind my argument is work 45:15layer 2 that is going to provide security and layer 2 is going to provide scalability and it's going to be likely proof of stake approval authority and these channels and systems um on top so in the end proof of stake is not that bad when i promote the ethereum tool to move it's 45:33not only good for etc because it liberates the our market segment from this big competitor uh but it's also true because i think that um to have these systems to be more scalable uh combined with the core with the base layer um they 45:53would provide combined both scalability and security so i've been thinking of the concrete mechanics of how that would work that would work uh so my idea my idea is to one one that the core or the proof-of-work chains are going to provide 46:12the the sound monetary policy because i think that the proof of stake systems they're going to continuously change their monetary policies and it's totally subjective now so i think that um here in classic and bitcoin and litecoin and dotecoin provide 46:31a little bit more securities in terms of um monetary policy that's one the other thing is um anchoring know that that the state of proof-of-stake systems and can be anchored into the proof-of-work 46:48systems and but how how do we do that so in my imagination what i see is is that proof of work has several uh features one is that because it's very costly then it's very costly to create the coin and that's the connection 47:07with digital with with gold you know and and creates these systems as as digital gold but the other one is this thing of consensus the information when you receive a block with the proof of work hash that information the hash itself is sufficient information for the whole system 47:28to um to know that that is the the correct block and the computers can know that even if they don't know um [Music] any other computer and they don't have to check anywhere they know that that is the correct block because the work was done and 47:47and this has other benefits like you can connect disconnect from the network because your system is down or you lost electricity or whatever and you can connect again in a week or a few days or in a month so that permissionlessness and wherever you are as long as you have an internet connection you can connect and disconnect and you don't have to ask for permission 48:05you don't even have to ask which is the good change to anybody just by receiving the blocks you know which is the the right chain even even if you receive attacker blocks it's very easy to discard the the imposters and and choose which is uh the 48:24the right chain and the last feature is that because the the the proof of work is cumulative then a transaction as it gets older it's impossible to it gets more more difficult to to 48:42modify or to tamper with etc so if you think about it the database itself if you take out everything else and you just get the the database the 725 000 blocks of bitcoin anybody who gets the database they cannot change it because they have to redo the whole work um 49:02so that that's a very extremely powerful thing because um even if all the the com all the miners of bitcoin were would turn tomorrow malicious and they want a1 and they want to reverse a block from from last year the the cost would be so enormous not only in 49:21the in the computers uh but also in the electricity that they have to spend all over again that it makes it makes it totally impractical this this is what proof-of-stake throws away so what i was thinking is that if the proof-of-stake systems encore 49:40this their state they they put a photograph or of their state every 10 minutes or every 60 minutes or once a day inside btc or inside bitcoin they can actually borrow this this strength from proof of work uh 49:59because even if if their communities tamper with the blockchain etc uh people can go to to the proof-of-work blockchain and and and check the the latest checkpoint and um and continue from there no so 50:17in a way it would me it would make proof of stake very secure i don't know if this what i just described is something that you guys um that makes sense about one thing that you said namely that just by having the proof of work you're 50:37already good this is not true you need to have the the whole history too or at least a long enough stretch of history um to be able to tell that any block that you receive with the correct 50:54um nonce value um that this one is actually part of the chain i could easily generate a completely fake block that is not part of any chain and give it to you and it will pass the verification but if you if you're not checking that it's 51:12in the chain then you could believe it and for example you could find a nice payment whereas where's where send you i don't know a few hundred thousand dollars to buy you a house and you give me the keys and you and i'm i move in and then you find out oh 51:32this block was never in any chain and the whole thing was fake so we you have to be very careful not to not to confuse this and the way you expressed it it sounded as if as as if you were saying that you didn't need the rest of the information you could just look at a block in the isolation and already 51:51be sure that this is a valid block and this is definitely not true transactions all the hasty yeah when i mean maybe i oversimplify when when i mean you can get the blockchain with all the history the transactions and and and you can check that if that is 52:11correct you can you can verify that is correct very very easily no and and when you when i say that is correct i mean every single transaction is hashed the miracle tree the the block header and and the hash but 52:29you also you can also confirm that the hash did the work not because they all hit the target that the protocol provided um redo a block that was from last year you would have to go to that block and 52:49rebuild the whole blockchain again until today and that requires a lot of energy that's one of them that's one of them protections and security features of proof-of-work history 53:08to check that although transactions were included with just the block you know how much work has been done sorry yeah we could have a slightly weak criterion also if you can present 53:28a long enough unbroken stretch of the of the chain um then you could say okay i mean it doesn't have to it doesn't have to start from the very beginning and we could just because we could say okay this computing this even if it's bogus would take so much it would take 53:47such a huge amount of resources that it's just impractical to to do this so you don't necessarily have to start from the beginning but of course um it's you would be you're even more sure of the correctness of things if you if you wave 54:06if you do a full verification like a note that boots from the on the genesis block does but you also get a let's say uh practical um assurance just if you say okay with the if the last i don't know hundred thousand 54:27hundred thousand blocks um have been if i have been quite correctly um i have a correct proof of work on them then it's just extremely unlikely for anybody to have done this this thing um in isolation just to to create a false impression 54:46and especially if you can cross cross check this rather information like the difficulty isn't ridiculously low also and then anything you could reasonably be sure that this is valid to 55:06have a certain certain amount of context that leads to the block that you're actually interested in in order to be sure that um reasonably sure that it's not just just it's not just fake because i mean if we do build a fake blocking but spending 55:25a very small amount of reserve resources actually i 55:44think it's uh a possible way forward many different um approaches but i'm not sure how much is actually added in terms of having a whole like full proof of stake system on top 56:02of the anchoring as opposed to some other layer 2 solution like ultimate roller or other things that can provide full evm compatibility just without the the economics of staking because even if you have anchoring you still have 56:21a lot of the problems that come with managing like the centralization over time and how they manage hard forks and that kind of stuff i agree that's why i always say that vitalik what he should have done was 56:41create ethereum leave it as as a proof of work blockchain and then creating layer 2 shards using ethereum as the beacon chain proof of work ethereum is a beacon chain and and and then on top of the charts the 56:59roll-ups and the channels and then on top of that the rest the rest of the whatever goes on top no but when now they they have decided to go not only ethereum 2 but cardano polka dots and eos tazos avalanche 57:18solana they have chosen to build complete systems with all the layers inside and they they believe themselves and they try to make others believe that their beacon chains and their base chains are layer one and all this even though they're proof of stake so now 57:36that they're built like that i think at some point in the future the market security and and at some point they're going to be forced to to use proof-of-work uh 57:55blockchains for anchoring or some device now a logical way of doing it would be to eliminate the beacon chain and re-adopt ethereum classic as the beacon chain and the place where everything is anchored the beacon chain in ethereum works as an anchoring system it's 58:13a checkpointing system for all the charts if they even if they did anchor they could still implement censorship including hard forks like they could just do day after dao style hard fork but keep it anchored work 58:34blockchain as well and in here classic if if we all got together and we decided to censor a smart contract uh we could do it no if all the nodes agree and the miners and the developers and all the community and of course it would generate a split because there would be a part of a community 58:52that would not agree of censoring the smart contract so yeah on the subjective layer any blockchain it can be can be the most if smart contracts boxing can be modified like that so yes the proof of stake blockchains suffer 59:10the same problem but at least i would say it's an undeniable checkpoint anchor that the that part of the communicate can go see oh no no this is the real and continue 59:28from there i think that actually the the chain split thing is going to play out a little bit differently in proof of stake systems in that and this kind of depends on the actual implementation but unlike with proof of work there's like the dynamics are extremely different 59:48and usually the majority stake will just annihilate the small chain because they will own stake on both chains as opposed to proof of work where it actually splits the network in this in the case of proof of stake hard forks it doesn't really split it just duplicates so the 1:00:08hard fork situation is very different and i think far more centralized and it means that things like ethereum classic won't be able to exist on proof of work sorry proof of stake uh future force yeah that's true proof of stake systems are very difficult to split and 1:00:26to break away from them um because the enemies inside the network um the miners in proof of work are external external to the network they connect and disconnect um the stakers are inside the network because they are coded into the system and their accounts are inside under stakes 1:00:47so the only way to split is is is to split and then delete their accounts and designate new figures which means you then have to do a hard fork as well so even if you're defending against a malicious hard fork like in the case that theorem classic would 1:01:08have to do its own hard fork just to survive which is like a very different and less advantageous position than it would otherwise be yeah one of the other the other possibility structural 1:01:25change is to what i mean first what i meant first is by anchoring i say the beacon chain at some point in the future would anchor they would anchor the beacon chain itself into edc and bitcoin or combination um but 1:01:46i would agree people say well that's so redundant now to have an anchor of the anchor of the anchor like that the other model would be much more structural which would would be to detach the shards from ethereum 2 and for the shards to be to 1:02:04use another beacon chain like a ethereum classic and to replace the beacon chain back into it here in plastic that would be much 1:02:14more structural as long as there there's um this l1 that's proof of work then people 1:02:33should be able to build whatever they want on top of that if it's a shard or it's a a roll-up or a power chain whatever you want to call it um i think what what matters is the source of truth and they're being like an anchor to the physical real world via compute cycles [Music] 1:03:00they're doing um these guys with with sharding and rollups channels and all that it's it's it's all research for us is ethereum 1:03:17classic it's been a very interesting discussion and 1:03:36i like this format where we have a uh some reference material that we can read beforehand and dive into and get to the nitty gritty of so perhaps we can reproduce this in future future discussions thanks 1:03:55to everyone for joining us before we leave uh i want to do the uh traditional opening of the floor in case there's any uh topics or suggestions that people want to bring up if you're in the chat and i'll have a quick look at the youtube to see if there's any uh any questions posted so 1:04:14please go ahead if you do have any points you want to raise we 1:04:45are looking very good on the weekly we are finally seeing the macd swinging bull so we have to have some patience uh this week and the next so 1:05:04that the traders investors with the price if if it remains flat chances are it'll it'll pop up it'll go really 1:05:24fast grayscale electroneum classic trust it 1:05:42also has a good weekly candle i'm saying also my trading algorithm has flipped the etcg after [Music] a very long time so i 1:06:00think it's heating up but remains to be to be seen what happens [Music] comments 1:06:18in the youtube that i will read now weekend is there a way to get etc involved with this next year surely they have booze that can be rented for etc information and someone can 1:06:36post that can inform the unknown public about everything etc related i fully agree with that i think it's a great idea i would love to visit miami next year in 2023 and uh do a little film 1:06:54classic get together the conference the bitcoin conference training atc i think it's a good idea consumption 1:07:13if we compare sha2 versus sha-3 does anyone know is one better than the other regarding energy use independent of the algorithm pretty much um they'll both consume as much as possible 1:07:37to that as a resident minor um no no you're absolutely right i mean what counts in the at the end of the day is um mainly power uh power cost and to a much lesser extent uh well it depends 1:07:55a bit but um generally to a lesser extent you also have the equipment cost and but essentially you whatever you choose in the end will have roughly the same cost structure and how many hashes you generate um if you're per 1:08:15dollar um that's largely irrelevant this adapts to this absolute whatever technology you use and if you have one algorithm that is much more efficient then you will just need that many more hashes to to obtain a block so so in the end it's a 1:08:35it doesn't really matter what algorithm you have as far as as efficiency and service concerns but the currency at the end of the day is how much money you have to put into this a 1:08:59lot of people still do sorry a lot of people still don't know the basics like one what platform we should use i assume that means exchange for example number two how we move our etc to a secure wallet that earns us interest similar to ftx and three why header 1:09:18swap should be used number two i'm not sure if there is any wallet that can do that i've i've not heard of one that can uh yield you interest on etc but it might be a thing that exists does anyone happen 1:09:37to know chelsea's network is offering rewards for etc i think it has a three percent uh api [Music] okay 1:09:57cool that's uh celsius network yes heavy swap or other decentralized automated market makers makers 1:10:15should be used the answer to that is basically um self-sovereignty and custody remaining in control of the funds in its entirety in order to make trades without having to hand 1:10:32over your keys to some third party advantages interoperability and certainty transparency all the benefits of using smart 1:10:52contrast systems a new job you you want to take and regarding 1:11:10the esmerald wallet and it's the the 1:11:29well-known emerald wallet by igor artamanov he was the the [Music] original core developer of etc since 2016 he was the founder of atc dev and i worked for atc dev um for 1:11:47him in 2018 and bueno ever since when he's he's been doing consulting and other stuff but now he started again a new startup uh that is emerald.cash 1:12:06and it's the emerald wallet that supports ctc it's the original coin that it supports uh so now i am operations manager in that company and i have two jobs i'm operations manager at uh emerald.cash and i'm 1:12:26business development manager at the eyewears which is where i worked before so yeah that's the news i'm very happy to be part of emerald great to hear thank you hear 1:12:44that uh iger is still um active on etc yes very valuable the the wallet is there anybody can go and 1:13:02download it and use it but we have a very interesting roadmap with with a series of products and the the core philosophy of the of the company is uh to push the control of their assets completely 100 1:13:22to the users uh so so users are going to have very easy ways to store the crypto and and without being traced with anything in a highly secure um way and and um and 1:13:42for for the company to provide a series of value-added services to end users businesses and developers in the form of infrastructure blockchain infrastructure and that includes running nose and all that so it's 1:14:02a very very interesting concept everything as time passes by that's that's my my job i will be uh looking 1:14:21forward to future updates organizing the call estora thank you bro and thank you ver everybody for for listening really 1:14:41interesting one and uh great discussion so thanks again thank you and on on that note we will be saying goodbye and thanks to everyone else for joining us and contributing and we will see you same time same place next week take care bye

Vitalik on Bitcoin Maximalism

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