Coop Retrospective, Grants, Treasury Discussion

0:25community call number 23. 0:25today is the 20 20 220503 returning and thank you for joining us again etc community calls this a casual voice chat to discuss ideas surrounding etc all are welcome you can join us on the discord 0:46at ethereumclassic.org discord and you'll find this in the community course channel dealing with time zones and other technical difficulties and now they're resolved so we will be back 1:05on a a normal show today on the last call um we were talking about the edc co-op retrospective document that they released and 1:23uh i think we covered most of it there um but just to recap i thought it was overall a fairly well balanced somber but uh optimistic uh look at the previous year of etc and 1:41um course you probably know all the content of that document but we encourage you to read it if you have any interest in reviewing those uh events that occurred last year comments 2:02on the retrospective the main downsides as as i see it is that two teams has uh have 2:20dismantled it dc labs and iohk iohk decided to leave after the treasury proposal got didn't get support from the community and etc co-op and i 2:39think it is elapsed moved on to to another project [Music] so other than that i think everything went as as expected more 2:55or less overall very positive especially considering all the uh the price hikes and natural adoption that's been happening so even 3:13though etc labs sort of uh um left the scene their previous work kind of paid off and has been uh reaping the rewards especially last year it's kind of a shame that they and others uh left at this point but their 3:32contributions will always be valued mentioning the fact that development growing very 3:49fast on on etc with a lot of new projects so compared to previous years i think i think it was very good growth has been uh happening 4:08organically without any like central direction which is kind of the exciting thing we can also take a take a look at the at i don't know a core component of the network 4:28and i'm referring here to to the hash rate it uh it went to if it went very up last year and it seems now that it it is very stable uh taking 4:46into account that the price fluctuated a lot so i think we have some some strong some strong support from the miners at this point stable 5:04regardless of the uh fifteening and if i'm not mistaken i might have seen in the chat earlier uh the dag size has breached the three gigabyte limit now i believe which means that uh some cards are no longer supported something 5:25that's great that we have to look forward to is i believe it's in august uh the ethereum dag hits crosses the five gig threshold so um we should see five gig cards get pushed over towards etc if the 5:42merge doesn't happen before august tc i guess just having a smaller dag in general is always going to be a benefit and eventually the 6:01rate so that was the whole concept about etc was even if ethereum does not move to proof of stake it would grow at twice the rate so we would gradually just start accumulating all of the cards that they obsolated and i think that was really the brilliance 6:20of etc hash was it took away um isa ability to continue you know uh to to dw um would it be uh to really yeah to really just dwarf our uh hash 6:38rate because of having the same exact dag growth so as it continued to move forward uh etc was always going to get stronger as time went on uh due to etc have uh and that started with the bringing 6:56back the three gigabyte cards and i believe when we did that change it was you know the dag was around like uh two gigabytes and something um but it revived those three gigabyte cards and then the four gigabyte cards if you remember when we got attacked that's where our dag hit our dag hit the four 7:15gigabyte cards and they all got booted off the network so we didn't have any cards um and uh and uh people were mining four gigabyte cards on zombie mode on uh on ethereum or uh sorry um yeah i think it's ethereum at the time 7:35but anyways so um so i think we'll see that we'll see five gigabyte cards on zombie mode on ethereum but also remember that um they did not delay the difficulty bomb so we'll start seeing the difficulty bomb start to come into play on ethereum which will also help people 7:54migrate over to etc so there's a lot of factors that are working out in the favor as time goes on um even if they don't do the merge uh you know in june or september or whatever it's signaling now do 8:13you happen to know when the earth difficulty bomb is supposed to go off and how long is it going to be until it becomes an issue for mining on 80 on ethereum i just uh i remember watching i i think uh 8:30brother-in-law uh posted a video of some minors recently talking about it and how uh their last call on friday they did not signal that they were delaying the difficulty bomb they could always delay it but the thought is is that if they do that then they have to do another hard fork right so um 8:51they'll have to package in some other stuff to delay that rather than just pushing a delay uh cards uh will be four four gigabyte cars will be able to to 9:10mine etc for another two years or three years something like that know there's like a jazz miner that's a five gigabyte card i just watched a red panda mining video uh last night to catch up on what's going on with the gpu miners 9:28and so there's some five gigabyte cards so um that are pretty notorious and so when those come over i'm not sure how long that will last but as you said uh four gigabyte i think is 20 25 is that right maybe 20 24. 9:42um yes five gigabyte cards it was uh substantially longer than that um and that's that's you know that's long-term added hash rate to etc so you can see how this is going to go is the longer that um that 10:01each stays on proof of stake we still will continue to accumulate cards and hash rate so that's the whole concept of etc has a long-term trend uh to go up and to the right on hash rate and that's primarily due to all of that thinking that 10:20was going on in 2020 um when those attacks happened that's what it was a very surgical approach to solve the problem opposed to other people that were attempting to you know just bash you know our algorithm and uh and just try to start from 10:38scratch which was an insane approach that we still see today i don't want to bring up what that proposal is um but the etc hash proposal was very sophisticated smart and very delicate and how it approached it was very 10:57surgical may go weird is that bill they they proposed in the in us where any new mining farm would need to to 11:17assure that they have regional energy for for opening mining and mining proof of work so that may may change things a little uh 11:36traction at least in the us i wouldn't expect that that would have much i mean i'm uh from colorado and we have greenhouses to grow weed all over the place and you want to talk about using energy resources um there there is absolutely uh huge lobbies that would prevent anything like that 11:55um just i i think it's a lot of uh green washing that we see in our our politics so i won't take that seriously good 12:14position um in terms of hash rate and especially the last couple weeks has shown that regardless of the reduction in rewards and the loss of uh three gigabyte chips still going fairly strong so the 12:33only way from here is up i guess had posted something about it but my understanding is that three gigabyte cards could be mining uh in zombie mode right now and uh and i believe he was saying that uh that made logical sense until about late june or 12:52july um so that might be another thing uh at play there so we might see a little bit slight decrease but what we do have is we have five gigabyte cards on the horizon um that will be uh starting to transfer over to etc gonna 13:12switch before then so we'll be fine great thing but if it doesn't you know the the flood will be reduced right it'll be that slow migration over um unless they switch over and then we'll have an abundance of hash rate which is a a great 13:32thing for this network network needs it um and it makes it very logical to build on top of etc when you have all of that hash rate there to secure all of your projects other 13:53comments on the edc co-op retrospective just one thing about the summit like i know it it couldn't have happened 14:13because of the pandemic but having this year or maybe for the next year calendar for it it would be it would be nice it doesn't prevent some kind of online event 14:31from happening even if it's like a just a discord chat but it could be a vr chat or something i don't know hit there were a lot of crypto related uh chat rooms in some 14:51of the vr things a theorem as well it was quite engaging piece 15:09which is the edc co-op roadmap for 2022 which i encourage everyone to take a look at it's uh full of some interesting uh proposals and give some good insight into the current state of etc and where it's going this year much 15:32more of a central role in the utc uh sort of mission as the main developer and also custodian of the the lion's share of the funding that will be spent on etc in 15:49the next couple years most likely they're currently sitting on five million usd plus some uh some atc which might appreciate in value which gives them about four years of runway and they have allocated 1.6 million usd for spending 16:08in 2022 which is pretty generous to hire new staff including core developers project manager communications and marketing manager marketing 16:29are going to be really important this year especially as um we decide we try and figure out what the messaging should be from now going forward after last year's somewhat um tumultuous community uh discussion 16:49now that those sort of troubled waters are under the bridge we can sort of refocus and look towards the future with a unified vision and message and also it'd be nice for eg co-op to have a a full-time sort of communications manager being able to uh 17:10keep on the pulse of the community and also have like a two-way communications channel might be nice is for some kind of uh maybe 17:28quarterly once every four months have the eg co-op communications manager or someone else from the co-op uh on one of these calls so we can have like a semi-frequent q a session about uh basically anything as we've done in the past i think on one of the first community 17:48calls it was a very successful q a with bob so hopefully we can recreate that kind of thing on a semi frequent basis article right now um i see that he has like 250 000 for ecosystem grants and he identifies 18:07decks stable coins oracle solutions and bridges um you know we've we've already solved that we have that in testing right now and that took all of you know a couple weeks for us to get that up and running um so i don't really see uh that necessarily being 18:25a prior priority for those type of funds um but i will say that anyone that has developed on etc does see foundational problems in the development uh community um or in the development tools um and i would rather see funds kind of allocated towards those things 18:45as an example is metamask the derivative path that metamask uses is busted um so why don't we have a pr that's going to fix that um you know just basic stuff like that um i think you know even forking a wallet and 19:04having a trusted wallet i believe the heavy swap guys have done that but i haven't used that and i think that that's more in line with their goal of doing a multi-chain product um but it would be nice for etc to have uh you know a very trusted wallet of its own that uses the correct derivative path 19:24but also that metamask handled the etc correctly um and if you don't know what i'm talking about take your uh take your ledger or your trezor and then look at your wallet in there and then go into metamask and you'll see that it's pulling the wrong uh div path so 19:44like that's a prime example of that's not even very expensive but that's a foundational paramount uh thing for adoption so i just really like i don't know who's on the board over at etc co-op but it's almost like sometimes they just say things and they're not really like actually using 20:02the products and all of that to really address our foundational problems it's like i mean this is basic 101 stuff and i just like to see a lot more um intellectual capital and direction from that organization i think we've seen in the past we've seen them be 20:21fairly loose with their limited budget and kind of working on things that are um direct misdirected in nature given their limited budget and now we have five million dollars they're doing 250k and they're talking about putting up dexa stable coins oracle solutions and bridges you don't need to do that that's naturally 20:39gonna happen what you need to do is you need to work on making sure the foundational wallet that everyone in the entire crypto ecosystem supports etc correctly you know um that's really where i think their focus should be with these type of funds also i want to mention is that the next paragraph down says that they're getting ready to draft a 20:59fresh proposal for a minimal treasury we literally just we will get into that we literally we just went a year and a half of debating this and it absolutely had no buy-in people were super pissed and it was good and now we're let's put this to the side let's put this to the side for nerf that's 21:18right like the board you guys seen to get your stuff together related to the wallet related to the wallet i think igor revived emerald 21:36emerald wallet i'm not sure how well it works i haven't tried it yet but i'll try it it's it's available for for download i can speak to the metamask issue because 21:56i've previously attempted to uh request um via github integration with etc into metamask and it seems like this is just a political thing that they're not going to accept or try to integrate etc in any way largely 22:16because it's basically controlled by consensus at this point so i think even if there was like a proper pull request to add etc support as first class support it would be rejected political issues which is primarily why i recommend using other 22:36wallets like nifty wallet emerald wallet i think is a a good uh it doesn't replace metamask in terms of dap interaction as a browser extension type experience i might be wrong about that wallet 22:59right and i think for like the vast majority of people that are using crypto at least ethereum ecosystem in the last year or so for them just a wallet is meta mask they don't really need to use anything else or would want to use anything else they would just expect to be able to use metamask 23:19or something like a metamask problem 23:37but uh i don't think it's something that can be fixed within metamask itself and in any case metamask is uh not an open source project so i don't think we should be promoting that 23:52kind of software uh really great uh solution is that we have an open source version of that um that goes online but you we also have to go to where the people are right um 24:11they all have meta mask installed so it's an unfortunate reality that as dapps go online on etc um they need to be compatible with metamask um it's tr it's like trying to get people off safari or you know a different um internet explorer you know um so that's 24:31the unfortunate reality uh hopefully um i didn't realize that it was political uh hopefully i i believe that uh bob was you know bob does pretty well and trying to work those political angles so hopefully we can get a dialogue open with them especially as the 24:51dapps go online on etc as brother uh brother was talking about how we've started seeing development this last year uh really increase on etc so i understand that position when we had a fairly bare uh 25:08dap development space but um that is not the future that we're going to be living in um so hopefully we revisit that with metamask and i'll get that solved where you can set up a custom metamask 25:27that adjusts the div path but uh it's not user friendly so we need a guide for that but also you know nothing's nothing's good about an experience when you log in and you go oh my god i have no money where did all my money go and then you find out that it's a technical bug inside the wallet and you have to do all 25:47this custom stuff to get your money back get access to your money had an outrage with uh for 26:07i don't know a few hours everybody panic about that of that centralization it is uh fascinating that metamask has been captured uh by i mean didn't uh is it still a consensus 26:26project or it was a joe lieben project and uh lubin project and uh and he he uh and then he stalled off part of it to like jp morgan um so now it's just like a big bank wallet uh that's tracing all of your transactions uh 26:42pretty sketchy to me don't know exactly what the ownership structure is precisely but uh i think generally that's what has happened as far as i understand uh in 27:05any case uh it's uh it's a shame be immediately captured by the uh entrenched interests so hopefully people recognize that going forward yeah and i think that's that that is a great um position 27:25of if we end up creating an alternative and getting it into all the app stores that is open source and then making sure that uh if we do that that we do support the ethereum foundation network as well and you know while the ethereum foundation 27:43network has continuously been adversarial to the classic network um i think that we can you know be the bigger man and uh and set it up in a way where yes classic is the main net just as it uh has been through history uh but we do have support for the ethereum foundation so 28:03that um the general public does have an alternative uh to that centralized uh big bank wallet called metamask now really the main central point of failure is not metamask itself but in fura which is the service 28:22behind metamask that does the endpoint which i believe is just consensus so consensus uh infrastructure in fiora went down as opposed to metamask itself yeah that's interesting and i think that we should you know that would be an interesting call to get people like rivet 28:42now that etc and etc co-op and ether cluster are kind of uh built on rivet um it'd be interesting to have those people we should we should reach out to see if they want to do a call and kind of talk about their system and uh and maybe just exploring kind of that infrastructure system and and seeing you know if there's 29:02ways to build that in an open way um you know that is the backbone of everything and uh and right now like and that's what co-op is using so it'd just be fascinating to see how that's getting organized um because it's not really on my radar that'd be very educational i'd 29:22love to hear about uh the the sort of plumbing that goes behind the scenes call um there is a really good guide about setting up metamask on etc uh it doesn't cover i i'm not sure how it works with the derivative path but uh if 29:42you just have a fresh wallet then it will use the same derivative path as ethereum and yeah and uh the derivative path you run into an issue there when you're using a hard wallet and so if you use trezor suite or ledger live as i believe what they're called there's um their software desktop wallets if 30:02you set that up and then you start sending funds to that wallet then you integrate in metamask so you're doing the proper uh opsec procedures then you go into metamask and you don't see your funds and so yeah it's because it's pulling the wrong path so then you have to figure out a way to hard 30:19code your div path so that aligns correctly like trezor and ledger set it up so that's where you'll really see it but if you just do a fresh address from metamask and you're not trying to import a hard wallet uh you'll be fine to 30:37interact with that it's just if you take that speed and then you go into your treasure or your uh your ledger later on you wouldn't see your money right so so that's where where we'll run into the issue a kind of generic issue across many different 30:57apps i believe in uh in like a mitha wallet or my crypto it gives you the option of selecting a derivative path but as far as i understand there's no like standard across every like chain i think maybe trezel 31:15and ledger have become the standard just because they're most popular but there was never actually like a uh any ecip to define what the ethereum classic derivative path should be as far as i know what path it pulls i'm wondering if metamask 31:34pulls div path one and uh and uh treasury and ledger pull div past zero i'm guessing that it's a stupid error like that far as i'm aware they it's it's like slash zero slash something something something something and 31:53then 61 for the chain id um but met it but uh ledger will just use one for the ethereum chain id yeah and uh and a fun fact for why uh ethereum classic is chain id 61. 32:06it actually comes from that library from i believe it's treasure who originally said it 261 um in terms of that path so uh than 32:23ethereum classic itself infrastructure that's you know that's how it goes so ethereum classic is downstream of ledger so i guess they get to decide what the uh the chain the um the 32:41derivative path is fair enough have been put in during the replay attacks um i i'll have to go back and look at the dates but that's probably likely when all of that stuff came out it 32:59would so uh the order of events would have been theorem classic gets 61. 33:03not sure who decided that um and then treasure would have implemented 61 so in fact i think classic did come first communications 33:23and marketing before we go to the next thing was there anything on there that uh anyone wanted to add um i just wanted to add the related to the previous subject even bob have have said on this card currently most 33:43htc users are using cops endpoint and there's no other public free one where people can hook their wallets so and 34:01i don't know i think this uh this may be a problem so finding a way to to have more endpoints you know that that 34:18may help in the future was reading about the basically somewhat centralization of the public endpoint situation on etc and it might be potential good 34:37use of the grants to sort of incentivize other organizations to run public endpoints in a way that can be quite easily checked right you just have a little bot that occasionally pings them every other day and if if they return the correct response 34:55then you can confirm they're operating and in return of doing that you get like a small fee from this grants program and then you can create a list of all those different nodes the same is true of the boot nodes i believe so an ethereum classic client you know to search for new 35:14clients through some gossip network i believe they you need to bootstrap with some initial nodes and most of those nodes are owned by or operated by athen classic co-op so again this would be a nice opportunity to run some kind of rewards program for operating 35:32a boot node as well as an rpc endpoint so maybe that's an idea if you're listening uh ec co-op is there uh so so i think that's that's a good idea um to use real life funds is there uh or just uh fiat funds i suppose um also 35:50it it would make sense for co-op to set up redundancies they've uh they have a rivet endpoint essentially right now um but also setting up an endpoint on a different competitor to rivet so that if rivet has an issue there's a functional endpoint and why that's relevant 36:10is that that literally just happened this last month where uh um rivet had a load balancer issue where they updated all of their servers except for one and anytime you ping that server you got a bad call and so while we were testing our software um we ran into that quite 36:29a bit and we couldn't figure out if it was our code or if it was the rpc uh and ended up being the rpc uh i think a lot of other people in the community started uh experiencing the same and we had a little discussion in the dev general uh chat and um two rivets credit is as soon as someone in the utc community 36:48reached out uh they troubleshooted it and it was solved in a matter of days so but that's an example of how um as it's very common in computer software systems that you build redundancies with the expectation that at least one thing will break and something big 37:06like the rpc endpoint breaking for the entire network um it would be great to have an alternative that has an entire different uh back-end system um so that makes sense uh the other thing would be to lean into that idea of what you're saying of using grants to fund people um and then testing by pinging the 37:25rpc uh endpoints is perhaps there's a tokenized system that can be built in there um where you know uh your uptime and all of that you earn some sort of token that uh ends up having uh a reward to it you know and so you can build some sort of uh 37:44decentralized inferior system with an erc20 token and an emissions schedule that you earn it just like how mining you earn it by being online you earn it by um servicing uh servicing calls and uh mp 37:59and online a tokenized system and whether it could be fully trustless or not and it's probably possible but uh a little bit more complicated but yeah 38:19obviously it'd be nice to use the native token as opposed to fiat currency if possible and it would also encourage people to do it in a more decentralized way without requiring kyc and without requiring whatever kind of paypal account whatever to receive the funds so etc is the office choice in that 38:37case um it would also allow you know if we could build some sort of way where um essentially a load balancer for rpcs where you know if you can point to one rpc but then it funnels to um all of these um different endpoints that 38:56are set up it's it's a variable thing um so that instead of like i just think of uh bob was just mentioning co-ops endpoint is servicing quite a bit of people right now um if we have some sort of load balancer for endpoints that's splitting that uh burden out i think that 39:13um response time and just uh the burden of running the inferior is spread out an on-chain registry of all these different points that is also used by some kind of dns 39:32service that then fails over or randomly sort of in a round-robin fashion uh directs traffic to either dns or a load balancer in that sense don't 39:51know who's this specialist in that but i bet uh like people that are specialized in routing right just internet routing that type of uh process is um i bet that there's some value there so if anyone's listening that has that type of expertise um i really think there is value there and you 40:10know that allows people like us um just you know maybe not miners but other people in the ecosystem uh to fire that up on their computer and run you know rpcs and all of that and uh with the assumption that there is some sort of incentive play built in um you 40:29know i would certainly uh run that from i would designate a computer to do that you know um so i i think that makes sense it's out of my realm so i can't be someone that's gonna pick that up because i wouldn't design it correctly but if anyone has that um skill set uh that would be very welcome the 40:48the problem is with setting up such a such such infrastructure is the is the equipment because you you basically need for starters right on one single location you'd need two servers and 41:10clusterize them and assure redundancy for internet and also have someone for to look it to look at them and for maintenance so setting this up on different locations on the globe it's it's 41:28very complicated you'd need some sort of proxy that can connect them all and something like that it's complicated do you think uh do you think that it would be possible to design some sort of docker image that does that and then you can deploy it into any 41:47cloud-based infrastructure for online time and then it has the kind of incentive system built in and all of that obviously you'd pull it from some sort of pgp signature verified source but i mean that might be a way of yes someone there could be ways to do it at your 42:06house and so you build the system and you actually have all the equipment there but for people that just want to maybe fire it up essentially it's in it's like mining right uh but instead you're providing the um the piping um what is that a solution is that perhaps it could be a docker image that just has kind 42:26of an easy guide to deploy and then you know you set you set up i think the simplest way is to run your own node right you run it your own and you connect and you connect it and that's all you don't use a public if 42:48you really need but [Music] i don't know having people and show them how to do it and maybe make some tutorial about it in case [Music] they really need fast access and high frequency 43:08um i think that that can solve it i think the the main issue that the uh public rpc endpoint solves is onboarding new people that don't really want to go to the hassle of saying if they're own node as well as people on mobile 43:27who can't set up a node on their mobile device so it'd be really nice to have like a decentralized version of that that has built in redundancy and i don't think you necessarily need to have full scale devops slash like infrastructure for 43:45each individual supplier of the endpoint as long as there's enough individual suppliers of endpoints in the pool of endpoints then redundancy will mean that the load can be fairly distributed without requiring super high levels of but 44:06there's a lot of problems to solve in this project it's a very cool project by the way and i think someone should make this but uh there's a lot of things to solve including like uh as you said routing and how to find like the best uh node to connect to how to balance that between different parties and clients how to ensure 44:24that the incentivization system is not gamed i think that's the hardest part and how to do that in a relatively decentralized way but a set of very interesting problems to solve and something that really needs to exist and it's applicable to far more than just ethereum classic so i 44:44think the first person to crack it would be uh sitting on a nice project there the request per days like i'm seeing here in the document the 45:04end point of the the current endpoint is receiving like 90 million requests per day so that's like huge of the of doing some sort of load balancer 45:24where the end user only really has to hit one end point but then on the back end it starts to take that traffic and divvy it out to other endpoints so um it's not necessarily like hardcoded in everyone's metamask or whatever wallet they're using um you know i mean that's the issue right now 45:43is i mean i even have a private uh rivet um endpoint uh but you know if i have uh if i have the public endpoint in my metamask uh all of my calls will be going through that and so um and then also with uh with dapps um when you're setting 46:01you know the front ui ux it's like you know you hard code that endpoint and then you know that unless i go back and i change it to a different endpoint i'm always going to be hitting the public rpc so um so i think that there is value there uh maybe this is something that that 250k 46:20could work for um at the co-op um is building some sort of load balancer and then thinking about a system where we can um you know where we can fire up and start contributing in that way as well and hopefully there's some sort of incentive in it outside 46:38of just the 250k quite easily uh tokenized in some way and definitely monetized if there is a fee structure in place the but yeah there's a number of problems to solve 46:56and how you make it user friendly in terms of like what url do they put in the box and if it's just one url then you just have a centralization point there so how do you get people to generate their own urls and how do you load balance that is a 47:14problem lot of mechanics in here that makes it similar to mining um uh proof-of-work mining and so uh so i think that it's it there is an incentive system that could be built in there 47:33um also there can be you know pools and such um so inferior pools could be a solution but i really think that maybe some sort of router and load balancing um what makes a lot of sense and uh there are definitely plenty of specialized people in that that will probably hear that and say 47:53oh well that's really easy to solve we've done it in so many other applications this is you know an easy one for us to pick up so hopefully they hear this video and it'd be a great project or not it's done in a fully decentralized 48:11way um for ethereum classic it'd be good to have some other organizations running both rpc nodes and boot boot nodes so i think that's a reasonable thing to be incentivizing 48:24the creation of kind of close on that is i think that that aligns with what co-op's purpose is co-op's purpose isn't to you 48:42know make dexes or any of that its purpose is to um to uh support the infrastructure of ethereum classic that i believe is you know where its funding source came from and all of that and so um you know it's nice to see them now uh funding client 49:01developers uh you know it was odd when they weren't doing that i know that they had a small budget but their company organization was very strange when it didn't have any developers on their payroll so it's nice to see them doing that and then starting to support services that are the backbone 49:18to the network and a necessity um and then hopefully um some different funding sources come in to you know solve long-term solutions to making sure that's stable or systems get built like we're talking about this infuria built in this way where it's incentivizing 49:37people in the long haul to pick it up and uh and co-op can kind of fade away as that system uh grows forget that um i would also categorize developer 49:56tooling as part of that infrastructure sort of remit and scope and whilst i believe that developing etc is pretty much exactly the same as ethereum be nice to make sure that that uh documentation and support in all the popular 50:14developer tools is there and ideally ethereum classic is a first-class citizen in in that ecosystem use uh remix right now you know um um etc isn't in there it says you know i think eath london um but that's just 50:33an example of how what are they ides um you know how uh how it would be nice to have some sort of native support for classic in there um we really do need to work on the development experience um it is a bit confusing it takes some onboarding once 50:51you get it it's actually not that challenging but when you're burning a lot of time just trying to get stuff to work how it should work um and just trying to find out how the heck do i support this network um that's you know those are the low-hanging fruit that's that's the stuff um that's straightforward 51:10to solve and it just takes a little bit of effort and likely communication with those products and uh and we can get get all of that solved um it'd be great if some developers highlighted a list of um popular tools that needed to be looked at and fixed like for instance on this call we've talked about metamask in that div 51:30path um remix and maybe some other ones uh so that at least co-op has that on their radar um that would be great i think that cody always said um if the community requests it co-op will uh put it on their priority list um so that's that's likely a good approach 100k 51:53and you have the option of building a dex or ensuring that all the tools are ready and easy to use for other people to build however many apps they want then it seems to make sense to to focus on the tooling you're 52:12giving everyone fishing poles supposed to give another fish 2022 52:30will be allocated effectively and will have the intended effect on the growth of the etc ecosystem on 52:54okay so yeah this is the fresh proposal for a minimal treasury and uh i know there might be some strong opinions on this call so let's try to uh keep it as uh shall we say uh brief as possible um 53:14but i think uh we're most of us on this caller are in agreement that uh we have had the discussion already in terms of treasury and hopefully we don't have a repeat of last year in terms of another long drawn-out discussion but uh my 53:34position is if there's something new and uh fundamentally different then i'm definitely open to all possibilities but uh i just hope it's not a something that's like slightly tweaked i mean the the kind of treasury that i'd be 53:52open to is one that's not based on a a protocol update but is funded on the application layer in some way and there's various means to doing that uh i believe some members of the call are actually in the process of trying to do that so i 54:12will open the floor i only have one comment regarding this subject fund that has never been spent or it has been spent 54:30for for organizing a summit or something like that um there it has the community how the the community fund hasn't uh been uh used and 54:47can be used at this moment and another thing you have a co-op who who hasn't had a person uh like engaging in in the crypto space or trying to attract sponsors 55:07or trying to um i don't know get get funds so there isn't much work done in this in this area other than this this proposal so i 55:26think till till we have something like something more like have a long-term plan that that can cover i don't know the basic uh the basic measures the basic things 55:44that should be made regarding attracting funding and it's just it's just all talk and it it creates a an ambiguous situation that was kind of one thing that uh on their 56:04little 20 21 recap is i don't know what co-op's doing in the sense of they have this negative messaging like oh you know everything's so bleak and etc you know just a really weird messaging that creates fear um and uncertainty and doubt for the future um 56:24and so um so i i don't really understand why they try that messaging um and it's it's confusing when you're supposed to be you know a supporter of the protocol um what i will say and then i just want to say on like just reading this little blurb it says there remains some 56:43there there appears to remain sorry there appears to be some remaining appetite for a treasury system if it is open and fair and limited in scope i don't know where they got that um my understanding of the treasury debate was that it was heavily 57:00rejected by the mining community who they were trying to uh get 20 of all mining block rewards um and then there didn't seem to be a lot of appetite for the centralized approach where it ingrained these organizations to in the protocol to receive these funds forever 57:20right in perpetuity that is insane other people thought hey we should put a dead switch on this at five years um that in five years this treasury dissolves uh but we all know how that would go is if you're receiving the funds 57:38all you do is you keep delaying that switch uh as we've seen with the proof of stake example right um in in uh the difficulty bomb in uh ethereum is that you push an update and then you delay when the dead switch happens so um there is 57:56not a big appetite for this treasury system and these i think that's a waste of funds and it will generate another contentious conversation between the mining community and uh and a very small development team when there's other solutions that you can 58:16do on top of etc that actually are a positive it's a win-win you're building on top of etc and you are funding development in that way and you're building a robust ecosystem that is putting protocols online that other people can build subsidiary 58:35protocols to that protocol that you've put online that's how you build an ecosystem you don't just hard code the block reward to yourself and i think ioh k failed in a miserable way and they tucked their tails and ran after you 58:54know there was absolutely no appetite for that and then co-op uh came out at the very end to withdraw support from that um but i mean that was a dead proposal pretty much when it arrived even when the network was on its knees in a 51 attack um and people were trying to 59:13solve the etc hash uh solution um you know so so that that was an example of someone coming in and trying to centralize and control which this network will reject 100 of the time or uh people approaching the surgical approach of solving the solution which was 59:32etc and the network uh took that in with open arms um and you know this network isn't stupid it's not a centralized network the participants in it are fairly sophisticated they've been around for a very long time and you just you're not going to be able to 59:50pull uh the sheet over their eyes on something like a new centralized treasury at a protocol level it just it does not have steam i you know and and i'm not and i'm not someone that would be paying for it right i'm not a miner i just you know you have to look at what we're dealing with here and it's just not 1:00:09in the car it's it's not worth the debate what's more worth the debate it's starting to talk about how do we do fees and scaling for this network in the future that's where the direction's gonna go because that's the trajectory of this network um this is just opening uh old wounds that have 1:00:27kind of get uh scabbed over so i hope that that's clear to co-op and the board because um this was another thing where i was saying oh my god this is business as usual 2019 2020 2021 contentious proposals by the private development teams 1:00:45to try to centralize the network and centralize funding for themselves and straightforward they need they need to hear it they need to 1:01:04hear it because it does have an effect it's a negative effect and it can be damaging to all of the other great things that are going on on this network is that when people continue to bring this type of stuff up in this contentious debate you just you really start causing problems um and 1:01:22yeah and you just bring this uncertainty of oh my god you know you give a talking point for the people that hate the network and want to attack the network um and that's coming from within so you know we we just need to stop that um there's far better solutions than building these protocol level ecip 1:01:43funding mechanisms that have failed since 2016 and they're failing today you know it's nothing new there's been no appetite for it um you can just go look at the track record move on unless anyone else has any uh points 1:02:01to raise on that topic one final thing that uh with this new reality of uh etc co-op having four years of runway i think there's apparently well depending on the the nature of the proposed treasury i 1:02:20think that would need to be taken into account as well as it seems to be less of a pressing concern at this stage that four-year uh timeline is that as we see adoption go up uh i would expect their variable cost to go up just simple accounting 1:02:38um and so perhaps uh bob's wife allison uh could maybe set up some projections for uh etc co-op to release but um i think of their end point for instance if we don't solve that load balancer where the burden starts to go to other organizations um their burn rate will increase 1:02:58as the network continues to hammer at that end point um so just something on the radar is i had asked bob if he expected it to be a static burn or if he expected it to grow he said static on that four year um but i would expect it to actually grow in terms of expenses as more 1:03:17daps and everything go online and use the infrastructure that they have been putting up in place um 1:03:36would look in terms of uh overall budget for just the end point but i don't know i i can't imagine it being too crazy uh in terms of i mean depending on the number of users and as far as i understand rivet is kind of 1:03:55handling a lot of that on their side so i'm not sure if that's like a direct cost to etc co-op they just set up a plan with them uh you can go on rivet.cloud right now and set one up we actually did that while um the rpc was messing 1:04:14up for us and then we found out that it was river rivet that was the issue excuse me sorry my throat's correct um but uh their pricing is fairly favorable but if you hit it a bunch the 1:04:28pricing goes up yeah i just wanted to to add about a treasury talk i think they should really look on on 1:04:49on some other solutions because it's clear i can go and open a news a crypto news website and i can see that some project got to 30 million dollars funding some other project got also money and i think people 1:05:08are opening up to to crypto and we have a very cool protocol and i think it's just i don't know having finding the right persons to to go and talk to investors talk to the businesses and find 1:05:26the find a way to to support to support etc to invest in it and grow it mcintyre uh brought up that uh point 1:05:45as well uh a few calls ago and uh finding investment in some way how they're gonna make a return on that investment i'm not 100 sure but uh as other chains are doing so uh surely there must be some kind of model 1:06:05to work with that the community fund was mentioned and uh my understanding of the community fund 1:06:24is that um they don't feel comfortable just giving it um like to an organization like uh like co-op for instance so and and that also comes when you're talking about when you're requesting money this was another thing that i oh failed at was you when you're requesting money 1:06:43you need to have a roadmap and you need to have a plan you can't just say oh just give us a bunch of on unmarked money uh for no reason uh and in perpetuity and it's really hard to get buy-in when you have that um you know if it's you know hey we need 100k for wallet maintenance 1:07:01or client maintenance or something like that that's a far different thing and then and then at the when you have a roadmap like that then the discussion goes well does it even make sense to do this through the protocol or shouldn't we just do out of protocol funding solutions right um is there a way to um 1:07:19you know build some sort of revenue stream into the products we're creating to make this self-sustaining um this is business 101 stuff um and it just it does not make sense to do it at a protocol level for the network especially but you know when we're all about uh decentralization 1:07:38and open uh contributions you're not gonna be able to do it um uh from the protocol level if you just have a an address that's getting money deposited into um it's it's very complex and then trying to remove that funding mechanism in the protocol in the future now that's where the real problem happens 1:08:03be open-minded and see if and when and how they land this new minimal treasury proposal and if it is indeed a protocol level layer treasury let's hope that it's a well-designed one but let's move on to the next topic which 1:08:22is uh ecip 1049 is still on the plate though it is not urgent and rather contentious which i think is a a fair statement and one that i am seeing is uh reasonable and a 1:08:39fairly neutral stance which is good contentious about that statement itself says not urgent and rather contentious and 1:08:57i think that that's accurate um you know i don't think that we've seen uh a fault in eth or etc to date which i think that that is the urgency i don't think that we've seen a drop-off on network cash rate we are pushing 1:09:16on all-time high hash rate for the network ever so that's in a great shape um so i think that the real value from all of that you know while it's been long drawn out contentious um and very painful at times has been it's got us looking at transition planning 1:09:36for the future you know in a hundred years we certainly might see uh eat hash and etc become obsolete as computer equipment itself changes right so um i think that that's there's merit there um in terms of transition planning on 1:09:54any sort of algorithm i think that 10 49 is dead in the water because of um i think that it's focused on doing that uh i mean it's it's dated today you know this was back in 2018 2019 when the hash rate was a much different picture 1:10:13and the entire network or the entire ecosystem wasn't much different picture um nowadays it's you know it's a lot of it's not even applicable um and so you know it's in a redraft stage but i honestly i just i just don't see that that has a life i think that it will end up dying i think the 1:10:33transition planning and that stuff will re-emerge as a new ecip in the future if it's ever needed but but 10.49 to me is dead with just a few asics sock puppets that pop up and try to stir the pot on 1:10:52it but i think the network's passed it and uh we're in a good shape moving forward would say that um 1049 as 1:11:10it stands whilst some of the content in there is good and the arguments for sha-3 uh we've gone over many times in the past but generally i think it's a step forward in terms of technology but the the devil is in the details of the transition and hopefully the next uh sha-3 1:11:29related ecip will have far more meat on the bones in terms of transition planning and schedule and hopefully or maybe they could just be an ecip for generic algorithm changes that can be reapplied to any different algorithm and 1:11:49i think that would be useful as a kind of augmentable ecip real value is is right there is that transition planning and a generic to any generic uh algorithm um and that's because uh we already used this hashing function 1:12:08that 1049 is trying to go to so if there's an exploit in the hashing function in etc guess what there's also an exploit in the 10 49 uh hatching function correct because it's the same so we're not we're not gaining anything it's really a removal of 1:12:27the dag is how that should be looked at and i i don't think that there's a lot of value in that today um so so i think that will uh you know i think i think we would see a completely different ecip if uh if we were talking about a transition to a completely different algo 1:12:46not a transition to the same algo we have and surgically removing the dag if if the proposal gets updated because since last 1:13:05development call that that was the conclusion that for the time being there's no urgency in uh calendar 1:13:25a blog or something like that [Music] yeah and uh and henry had came on one of these calls and said that um you know he had you know he had not he's not pursuing any of that hybrid transition planning and and such and so um it just it's 1:13:43it just kind of did what it's did back in 2020 of you know it never updated um so we'll see but you know when someone messages that it's not urgent um and it's rather contentious you have to kind of put that you've read between the lines there and what that means is that you know we don't you know we don't really have appetite 1:14:02here it's kind of like how iohk when they um left with their treasury there wasn't a lot of appetite but what they said was you know we're gonna withdraw this and focus on other things they didn't say wow we utterly failed in this proposal you know that's just not how humans work so um so i i would just read between the lines there and 1:14:21just understand that uh it's likely that that proposal will start going silent um there's not a lot of need for that um and and i i think the hash rate being at all-time highs and new miners coming in constantly um i think we're in a really good spot in terms of network health and uh outlook in 1:14:40the future i i'm gonna comment on that like it's i don't think that's entirely correct but uh you know i'll leave my comments for for you know for for the work on 1409 all-time high it's virtually insignificant 1:15:02you know the network does need something longer term and that's i don't want to get into the rat hole of you know what's good on on this call and where it should go evidence shows that we're in an up into the right trend on half rate and so while 1:15:22you can pay doomsday scenario as you've been trying to do for the last couple years um i we understand your financial incentive to do so uh that's just not the case on this network and so you can come and you can try to paint a bleak picture and have sock puppets come in and everything but it's it's just it's onion i 1:15:41didn't call you a soft puppet okay and um we're not we're not gonna deny both of us regardless let's leave this for 1409. 1:15:52yeah let's move on for now i can see this uh quickly escalating so we should uh put that to the side i mean that's what happens when a centralized actor tries to capture things they get rejected okay so 1:16:09uh the next topic is uh i have a quote from the um the road map saying uh etc needs a cl so this is edc co-op saying they need a clear position statement for etc and we need to work with the community 1:16:26on agreed direction and focus and that sounds to me like they are looking for feedback about what the sort of narrative for etc should be and how decisions should be informed going forward that 1:16:44may have been like the the narrative for etc is constantly evolving right constantly being refined and i think maybe last year especially with the launch of the new website there's been a lot more refining going on in terms of that and one of the memes that's been picked up even by etc co-op itself is the 1:17:04etc is f btc meme and i think that kind of summarizes in a nice uh a quick way um basically what etc is all about so um in terms of agreed direction and focus what 1:17:24does that mean exactly in terms of uh what are we looking for and what what kind of focus do you guys think uh etc co-op should adopt i i 1:17:42think things are very stab stable now i only think and i think all the community agrees that it is needs marketing and better communication and opening and i don't know letting the world 1:18:01know that etc is open for business so i think this is our major down point we we need to to increase adoption and let's be real marketing is is 1:18:19the way to go there's no other way unfortunately we can say all the techy stuff right how great the protocol is how stable it is now how hash rate may grow soon and everything else but without 1:18:40without marketing without a very good campaign about how resilient etc has proven to be how how how 1:18:57the coin is basically hard money and what can achieve for uh for a simple person and in terms of narrative i think we 1:19:17should try and potentially predict the future in a way to kind of preempt the the future trends that are gonna uh arrive in the blockchain space and i think you touched on something earlier uh ronin about related to the whole jpmorgan thing and how 1:19:35ethereum classic could be seen as like the open source and free and uh non-captured chain and i think that is gonna be a uh a future sort of selling point uh as time goes on is 1:19:53my uh perception if if the current trend continues in terms of ethereum uh and the path is just chosen to go down would be a marketing uh differentiator yeah and just uh just to hit on uh kind of the marketing angle um i think that we 1:20:12have a lot of great things going for it um i think in i want to say it was 2016 or 2017 someone uh set up a bunch of marketing stuff in the media kit folder um you know classic can't beat the real thing um there's a lot of angles there for a marketing team to work with um i 1:20:32have uh some branding guys um that i work with and when they started seeing kind of where etc is hearing its story reading that uh the timeline history that we have on the website uh a lot of the work that uh was done on the website the narrative in there um is really really 1:20:51good work uh it really helps a branding outfit to kind of understand this network and then those are the type of people that can set up a brand and vision uh i would not think co-op would be people that could do that uh just because they're very technical right um and that's an issue is that uh people you 1:21:09know in our ecosystem that are very technical they get talking and then everyone else just glazed over that's the beauty in marketing is you take a great subject like etc and you make it sexy and you make it easily digestible and you get it done in a couple seconds um so uh 1:21:28so i think i think we have everything we need on the website it's about getting the right branding people together to start building campaigns and maybe uh we need some money that funnels into that to start marketing the network around um of course stuff has to go online 1:21:46as well you can't just have a network that is just running for miners and you don't have the use cases built on top um so so that's the other other element to it uh and then i'd also say um just give credit to donald donald did a really great 1:22:03job of um in his content in his own way of expressing the technical um merit to classic in the greater uh blockchain ecosystem as the largest proof of work uh smart contract network and 1:22:22that is the meme for that is eth plus btc equals etc that that the meme uh really uh highlights that thought that longer thought that donald had so i think we have a lot of um that value prop and everything really uh 1:22:39flexed out but it's about bringing uh competent branding people in and um and i don't know why they would need to be on payroll um but because you can just set up campaigns but i would do it with uh with some pretty good outfits um opposed to going with the cheapo marketing 1:22:57outfits uh outfits um but anyways uh i think we have all of the material there on the website alternative to ethereum still a good one especially 1:23:16in light of the merge and then on top of that we have a big transaction fee advantage you know that message isn't well you know isn't well known in the community to 1:23:37where we are in the in the life cycle we will have to in the ecip process we're going to have to have a scaling debate um it's going to be long and drawn out but um you know i think we've talked about this a little bit in the past and it'll be interesting to see if we can fire up side chains and optimistic roll-ups and and such to mitigate the fee market when it starts 1:23:57to grow and get uh excessive but um our tech stack uh it's not like we're more efficient we're just uh we're just an empty empty or higher understood mention 1:24:16that has also sort of happened in the last year is the explosion of youtube videos that have been made about ethereum classic mostly in english um but it would be potentially nice to have a series of videos um that cover the the 1:24:36sort of y classic uh value proposition in english but also in a series of different languages because i think we are lacking in terms of outreach to apart 1:24:51from english speaking places uh a big adopter of know 1:25:16we have we have our other language channels maybe it makes sense too i mean if we can get i don't know brother uh do you uh you you did a little the video stuff if you can maybe think of how we could get the copy that we have on the website and get into some sort of video format um 1:25:35and then if we have some sort of i don't know animations or or something that makes it look uh sexy and easy to digest um and then and then we just have closed captioning that uh translates to other languages um i think that that might be an easy lift yeah 1:25:55well i have some some experience with with marketing the the thing is you you basically need to do a campaign like you have to to have one single message or two messages but one main one and start 1:26:13building around that and you build by making videos reading materials i don't know making memes um but 1:26:34but you need like a team right you need to talk like with i don't know two or three guys and have that unity and uh make make the materials making the materials is not a hard part but have having 1:26:53them distributed online right like if you if you make this sort of materials you'd want to put them in ads you'd want to pump them on twitter you'd want i don't know having them on on 1:27:11crypto uncrypto summits and stuff like that so there's a whole idea so if you make a one-year campaign right and you go everywhere and meet people 1:27:28and have communication and have talks and have engagement with the people then yes it it will work people will see that [Music] that everything 1:27:46is moving everything it's alive people are active and uh will will uh will tend to to adapt and that's how marketing works but if you do one video and for 1:28:06example if i make one video and put it on youtube i'll probably get i don't know 100 views so [Music] like why would i work for 100 views but 1:28:25if you if you don't make it in a way where you have a campaign that backs you and shares you and have a community ready to to uh spread the message then you just work for nothing of 1:28:46how it does need to be organized uh in a professional way um this is one of the larger networks uh it definitely makes sense to approach it in that way and and there's another thing etc doesn't have a public figure right so this is good in 1:29:06terms of the protocol but it's bad in terms of the image so when when people go and look out look up etc they they see the first thing they see that it was born from a hack and this 1:29:24is the the reality and we need to we need to smoother it and make it uh make it more understandable and show people that that etc 1:29:42is great because it will always survive so it's it's hard to put that in a message and in the marketing based on our history but that doesn't mean but 1:30:02overall without a proper focus in in this direction it's uh it's not just going to happen i kind of disagree on that point in terms of um 1:30:24i don't think it needs necessarily i mean yes it'll definitely help to have like a massive centrally funded marketing campaign for etc but i don't think it's a like a life or death thing and i think uh eventually over time natural contributions will create their own 1:30:43marketing as we've seen already it'll just increase slowly over time and sort of uh reach a critical mass eventually but if we do want to speed things along which i think is a good idea then having this kind of campaign would definitely be something 1:30:59to look at if etc manages to to attract people and also attract money money [Music] things will grow a lot faster like developers 1:31:18will be more incentivized to come to build an etc because it has a mass also businesses will start etc because 1:31:37it also have because it also has a big community so in in many ways i i do think that organic organic growth is a is a good approach but 1:31:58speeding things a little is not it's not a bad idea because it's not like we have have had that right we're seeing other blockchains who are putting like 50 of the budget in marketing 1:32:34have some ideas talked about in this call uh hopefully some of those ideas get relayed to etc corp and they they spend their funds wisely was 1:32:55that they they mentioned in the document that they should fund translations to the site and uh this is something that i uh hopefully in the next uh quarter we can get uh internationalization support out the door it's all set 1:33:13up it's just a case of uh getting those uh translations coming in so hopefully 1:33:21i can talk to bob about related to marketing there there also should 1:33:39be i don't know a chat talk with with members of co-op if they if they can provide the guidelines for for marketing right and 1:34:06work around them and i don't know every everyone is doing a little something on twitter and facebook and youtube but if we have better guidelines on where the message should be and have the unity in 1:34:24in this regard i think i think it it can help really really well something that they are also aware that needs to happen and hopefully uh this this would be a good point 1:34:42of discussion on a future call with the co-op about where they think etc stands in terms of narrative and if we can come to an agreement about what that narrative should be that would be great currently 1:35:02an hour and a half so i'm going to try and speed up as i go through the the final few points of the uh the roadmap so that we cover everything they're going to be investigating the use of eragon aka turbogeth which we've discussed 1:35:20on previous calls which is the uh optimized geth client for ethereum uh that's currently been used on ethereum but not on ethereum classic i believe and it's something that if adopted on ethereum classic would uh essentially make the 1:35:40sync times a lot quicker and a lot less data usage and therefore the bloat issue a bit less of a problem so making the network more decentralized by making it easier to run nodes so this is a massive easy win if it's possible to use an ethereum classic uh 1:35:59and yeah just a a no downside sort of uh benefit that if the network can use will be really awesome underscore 1:36:20classic twitter handle with 600k followers and i believe a blue check mark is owned by ohk with kevin lord having personal tweetdeck access at the moment and i believe they flagged and we have talked about in previous calls about the slight uh centralization problem with this 1:36:39and ideally there could be some other solution that either opens up access to uh as we've discussed before like on github some kind of open moderation system for posting tweets or otherwise just adding more people 1:36:57to the tweet deck so that more frequent updates can be posted so i'm not sure if anyone has any thoughts on the uh frequency and or content of the s classic 1:37:14twitter handle the uh the github uh twitter approach with a different account um i thought that we were gonna try to set up that system with some sort of yep different account it's 1:37:33uh it's definitely on the to-do list i think that that's the approach that's probably what we should try to do i did ping charles uh in dm but i didn't hear anything back related to that uh i typically don't hear anything and then all of a sudden i'll get a text out of nowhere 1:38:03handle brola they should buy it it's it's funny because many years uh he 1:38:22has put a lot of money you know doing some stuff i don't know what stuff but as for the twitter handler i don't think it it reflects etc at this current state it 1:38:40doesn't make people look more aware of vtc it doesn't produce content it has spin it uh there uh a pose from barano a few years ago with 1:38:57a link that doesn't even work and but if if they don't want to sell it we 1:39:17should just make a new one that everybody know spam everyone that we have a twitter account and have a and have a more uh uh the generalized ways of of posting like uh i don't know if someone writes something 1:39:36good on this card we can have that message copy it and just push on twitter and stuff like that saw this with the uh bitcoin handle um if 1:39:55you remember during the bitcoin bitcoin cash fork uh that handle got compromised by a bitcoin cash person and they were trying to sway people by saying that bitcoin cash was bitcoin um that actually ended up uh being removed from whoever that owner was and donated to the bitcoin project to 1:40:14a safe hand handler um so that's also an avenue i think that that's uh an emergency avenue i haven't seen the need to do that i think that it's not like they're hurting the project but like you're saying is that it's almost inactivity uh that's the issue with that and it's unfortunate because 1:40:32twitter is such a big part of the crypto ecosystem um so while while an alternative is to start building up another account and likely populating the feeds with a new account that maybe has that github element where it's open uh content getting posted in there with an approval process 1:40:52with community members or um or the auxiliary is perhaps asking twitter if um if that account can be allocated to the project um 1:41:05so that's just another option really be resolved this year so i'm glad that uh etc brought that up in their uh robot 1:41:30bash through the next couple so we have conferences talk um i think we've talked about this in previous calls but uh obviously unable to do it due to covid but uh potentially this or next year we can do an in-person event that'd be awesome maybe 1:41:46in miami maybe somewhere else big bitcoin conferences makes a whole lot of sense um just with the ethereum plus bitcoin angle um even if it's not hosting our own conference 1:42:05but uh having a presence at big bitcoin conferences um i think that uh the ideals are similar there um and it's it's just uh it's saying hey you know we're a resilient network too we align you know with this type of philosophy um and i think that would 1:42:24be probably helpful um you know i i know co-op at least uh in east denver uh they had a presence there um so at the ethereum conferences too um you know so we can have our own conference but it's also it's also good to just have presence at some of the bigger ones with a lot of foot traffic i 1:42:43think that should be a priority rearranged to be uh etc minus 1:43:01btc equals eth can make it look all sorts of ways right so whatever formula you want in there um yeah yeah that's you know that way yeah that would be the trolling way to do it at 1:43:20a bitcoin conference right is to [ __ ] [ __ ] on ethereum via that um that mathematical equation okay so um next point uh unless there's anything else 1:43:38on conferences etc co-op is now becoming a foundation instead of a charity apparently there's some regulation that requires 1:43:58at least 33 percent of donations to be from the public and obviously most of the donations are not coming from the public at this point so they are converting from a charity to a foundation the only real difference there i believe is that they have to pay a bit of tax um but you can still get your tax deductibles by 1:44:18sending money to the etc co-op hope they don't rename themselves to etc foundation so if they're planning that please don't yeah i i looked at this of like wow that is 1:44:36full circle uh bob leaves the ethereum foundation and then comes and now we got the ethereum classic foundation right so um yeah talk about probably not the brightest way to message that um also it's strange that they had this requirement and they knew 1:44:54about it for five years and didn't uh didn't think of any way to get the funding model adjusted so they could keep the 501c3 status um so that's that was i just found that as uh improper planning there as an organization um but uh 1:45:12especially when you have you know um i i think allison is fairly sophisticated in finance and accounting and all that so surprised that's not on their radar for compliance purposes um what i will say is that um uh the dow llc organization that that i was talking about on i believe the last call uh that will 1:45:32100 me uh meet uh the requirements for the 501c3 so while we might be losing a 501c3 in co-op we will be gaining it in that dell llc so um i've talked to legal about that and then also uh just the way that the funding mechanism it's on chain and verifiable 1:45:49that uh all of the donations coming in will be from a ton of different sources so uh just based on that fee style model in 1:46:08terms of a 501c and donation model um you know if that if that's something that someone wants to do it didn't sound like anyone was even donating in that way but there will be that option even though the co-ops go in private the 1:46:30the efforts into into attack at attracting more more funding other than the ones from from grayscale so this 1:46:49move to to [Music] a foundation status means that they didn't they didn't manage to to attract funding but i'm not sure what were the the efforts 1:47:12on a call in the future uh that would be a great follow-up question as just what type of funding methods did you guys try so that at least as a community we know what did not work um and then we can try to game plan differently if if we need to in the future but um yeah this red to me as someone just from a finance and accounting 1:47:32background is i was like wow that's extremely strange that they didn't have that on their radar in terms of planning for um that your organization legal status uh that's it's just bizarre to me unaware 1:47:51about the uh reasons for being a charity in the first place it's like uh why not be for-profit um surely that enables more means of raising funds as opposed to just being non-profit but i don't know i don't really know what the mo of co-op is 1:48:11in terms of being a non-profit you know i've been going through it and you do have to have a charitable like uh cause so i don't even know what co-ops causes like 1:48:30uh the one that i'm setting up will definitely have a cause where you're doing charitable work that does not relate to just supporting etc you know you have to do it that way that's a legal requirement so i'm just not sure if they ever had that i've never seen any messaging like um you 1:48:49know co-op helping kids uh learn computer science or something right so it's you know i don't know where the charitable element ever came in and so i'm not surprised that they're going to private foundation but i i think like everyone is you know i don't know where the planning on that 501c element was 1:49:09in their organization it'd be interesting to hear that story the uh the 1:49:25main interesting points from the uh road map and i just wanted to ask i'll open the floor to if there's anything that you guys felt was missing from the roadmap in terms of what would be on your roadmap if you were to add an additional paragraph 1:49:52infrastructure we've talked about it on this call but i think uh infuria really resolving that i know that the to uh co-ops credit they tried to do it with ether cluster back in 2019 or 2020 um but just trying to rethink about the inferior issues that we had talked about maybe load 1:50:12balancing and all of that and having an endpoint that uh distributes the load around um for for dabs that will be going online i think that that's a really smart approach i don't know how it all works on the back end um pain and getting some funds going into that and then building an incentivized system especially if they're 1:50:30going private wow co-op that that you know all of a sudden i'm starting to see where you can get some money and have a value prop um as a private foundation um and then also uh the wallet stuff um metamask is centralized uh how do we start building something that's not centralized those type 1:50:49of roadmap i think that has high value to it far more than a minimal treasury 1:50:54and all of that other stuff thing 1:51:14is just taking advantage of this uh period of somewhat calm waters in terms of the community and whilst it is a little bit quieter i think that reflects the the general state of lack of things to argue about so i wouldn't necessarily see it as a bad thing 1:51:33at the moment and i think we should use this time to plan our next steps and do things that are sort of less controversial maybe and that everyone can see as being like obvious wins and uh yeah i i'm 1:51:53currently very um positive about etc and i think uh as i've mentioned many times before uh we're in a very good position right now um i think with this merge event what's great is what i'm starting to see on mining channels and such is that ethereum 1:52:11classic is coming top of mind to miners because they're being affected um it seems like a good opportunity to start planning a big marketing campaign um and starting to get that awareness because what miners are getting this from the merge event um the users will certainly 1:52:31uh be something to start attracting while those miners start turning over our way um and then in terms of dapps just from that 21 call i just wanted to give an update last call i had said we were in test net on that um we're now in uh mainnet on the d5 stack stuff that was being propped up and 1:52:51uh we're going through security audits right now and you know everything's looking great so i'm feeling real good about that so we will have decks we will have stable coins uh tether is the big one that i personally want etc to tether on chain um so we will have that coming over um and what that 1:53:10stack enables is also flash loans that's built in there um and then also uh on chain price oracles will be in there so i just want to signal um to anyone listening um that there will be liquidity pools um that you will be able to participate in uh it's 1:53:2725 bips uh is what the setting is and um so those big markets will show up um you know we'll have usdc or usd yeah usdc to usdt so one dollar markets right um so keeping that in parity uh all of that stuff 1:53:45and you have flash loans as well so you won't even have to hold the liquidity you can borrow it and execute all of the arbs in one block uh make the money pay the fees and uh and you didn't have to expose yourself to any of the assets um so that's exciting uh that's a lot of value 1:54:04that'll start jump starting the fee market for the miners and that also gives us a something to market in the marketing campaign is ethereum classic has decentralized finance on it for real finance 1:54:22right yeah yeah yeah decentralized square finance from from the road map is is the is this mission where uh 1:54:42cob should should make sure that etc will open up for more people in the future because uh at current state it it doesn't seem like this 1:55:01is the mission it seems like okay we're having a small blockchain of 4 billion dollars we'll let it grow and see what happens but i think okay this 1:55:21year or next year we we plan to attract development we plan to attract depths we pride planting to attract investors we plan to attract more people and [Music] we 1:55:41will try to to lay a solid foundation for for future growth because time is limited um 1:56:04is something that should be part of the mission of etc co-op like ideally i mean it would make sense for them to want to be able to get to the point where they don't have to exist anymore because their job is done and etc is on 1:56:23its own and it's walking on its own and it doesn't need the help of etc co-op anymore like uh there was events in the past right where they overcome them and 1:56:43i think this is the moment where uh where they need to to charge a bit it's not that difficult but uh engaging engaging in this space and [Music] finding solutions to to 1:57:05our problems to our causes that are not protocol related i think this is the step forward for for future growth and future sustainability 1:57:29issues into the mix as well i think that that would be very beneficial roadmap 1:57:57yeah i i think in in summary i i would say that this uh the this latest update from etc cop has been very well received at least on my part and i'm glad that they were able to put this out it's a lot of information and it was good to get this massive 1:58:16update and yeah uh hopefully this level of communication is going to continue uh in spite in spite our pessimism right uh because we mostly talk about the negatives 1:58:37uh this was the the best years and uh the best uh the best months for for etc and we can see this in in this report so overall things are good but but 1:58:53can be better especially on a big network like this um and yeah i think that's a good point is you do have to give credit where credit's due and they are doing uh some things great and so yes this is hopefully 1:59:11a call to just be constructive on please start working with this stuff hopefully you address these things but um but yeah there's great work uh you know like funding the clients um i think exploring another client uh might be a good idea it's always good to have a little variety in there that 1:59:30would give us three clients you know there is actually actually not they uh they plan to to with the new oh they're trying to they're trying to get away from core gas yeah oh 1:59:51i don't i don't know if that's a great idea i wonder what the logic on that is but um the eragon turbo guesting right so yeah it's it 2:00:10would kind of become a reference client for etc which uh i think is a reasonable approach and if it's like 10 times more efficient then if there was going to be a reference client then that should be it probably gath 2:00:28is uh the main main client it's like when multigath went online and a lot of cher was sitting in multagas so that'll be interesting that's just another another thing ecips 2:00:46that they are um alluding to so uh i will keep an eye out for those i think it's time to wrap up this call it's been two hours now and uh it's uh early hours in my time zone which is one of the reasons 2:01:04i wasn't able to uh make the call last week and with a bit more of a busy schedule uh luckily tomorrow i have a day off so i don't have to wake up early but normally on a tuesday uh this kind of time is not really viable for me now so we are gonna have to figure out potentially a new time a new 2:01:24day maybe a friday maybe have it uh less frequently maybe once a month maybe once every two weeks but uh listen out for updates on that uh and hopefully we can communicate in the chat about when 2:01:43an alternative day might be such that uh all of us can can make the call at a reasonable time or at least a time where i don't have to wake up in five hours so uh just a heads up that we might be changing the time or day or 2:02:01frequency of this call going forward super early for me you catch me uh waking up out of bed so it'll be exciting to maybe have a different time also maybe a different day um you 2:02:20know what ethereum does their calls on fridays um so it's a thought of maybe thinking about adjusting the day as well good because at least then i have to wake up early tomorrow 2:02:35the day after sorry informative per usual i certainly appreciate uh these weekly or bi weekly calls whenever they happen uh they're very helpful yeah uh you're 2:02:53welcome and thank you everyone uh for contributing thanks to brolow for helping out with the av site and for streaming and thanks to everyone for listening in on both youtube and in the discord channel and unless there's any final notes we can 2:03:09wrap things up take 2:03:20care see you next time bye

Coop Retrospective, Grants, Treasury Discussion

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