Year End 2024 Catch Up

0:02Classic Community call number 39 it's been a while since I last call about 9 months but we thought we'd have a uh bit of a catch up for 2024 at the end of the year to see what's going on looking forward to the next year in ETC we have a few topics this week to chat 0:19about including the ETC Co-op updates the ambassador program and Devcon 7 Reflections so um this call is being recorded and will be on YouTube and if anyone wants to jump in and discuss the topic feel free to do so 0:37so we'll start off with the Ambassador sorry the ETC Co-op update which was uh an article posted by Bob summer will uh last week I believe titled Staffing changes and Q2 and Q3 reports which can be found on the ETC cor website 0:55uh the tldr is that basically Bob is is uh announcing his departure as the Director of the ETC Cooperative a role which he held since January 2019 so that's 5 years of uh excellent service by Bob so thanks to him 1:13for for that Dedication that has been uh contributed to Etc project and uh he will be missed from the uh Etc C I guess and we'll see how things progress uh without Bob but 1:30we'll uh surely have a bright future nonetheless for the etherum classic project so additionally in that post it was mentioned that there is a remaining runway for ETC Co-op of about 3 years I believe so 2027 1:48uh September at current market rates of Runway which is about 2 million USD I believe and also there's a number of um other people leaving Etc Co-op including I believe uh Donald McIntyre who's on this 2:05call and some other members of the ET Co-op which leaves a couple of core developers remaining as um did I get that right and do you have any 2:23thing to add to the uh discussion that we can start talking about yeah yes you get you get you got um that right and uh in particular my last day at the ETC Cooperative is December 31st 2:40so it's another 10 or 12 days and [Music] um the ETC Cooperative Bob had told us in um February of March of 2024 that that that that the funds were depleting 2:58and the the The Cooperative had a a large donation from uh grayscale during 2021 during the 2021 20222 bull market 3:16um because the donations were in ETC so they they they translated into into larger and larger amount number amounts of M of dollars and um it was $5 million when and and the ETC corporate have been have been living of that money and 3:34it came to a point at the beginning of 2024 where they they were starting to think okay this money we're continuing to burn it so at some point we're going to have to reduce the stop so it's not something that was sudden or unplanned it was part of the plan no and um in the last 3:53quarter then Bob told us that a rational move would be to start reducing some of the activities were that were not core um so editorial of course had to go and marketing was reduced to 4:10to 50% to part-time um back office and administrative to to part-time um then social media tweet and all that um was was uh cut and 4:30also no more events so the two people that were um always working on the events the the proof of work Summits 2023 and 2024 after the proof of work Summit they were cut as well um so I I think it's it's just a rational the almost 4:48good management of the of the of the money of the ATC um cooperative and I I in my per personal opinion my particular case I always knew that it tutorial in any organization is something that you have to cut first if you're short of money know you have to keep 5:05doing your your main product in any Corporation or in a nonprofit you have to provide your main service um so I was I it was perfectly all right the only the only difference that is that actually Bob he decided to 5:23to also leave the co-op that that's that that's the real um thing that was unplanned and and uh and that this is something personal of Bob it is true he he's right I mean um the the cost of the executive director himself 5:42is is very high the board they don't they don't get any income so um but the executive director is also a cost for the ETC Cooperative so his departure is going to reduce the the the burn rate uh significantly as well and and 5:59so we had reduced the burn rate from 150,000 to 100,000 and when I leave Bob leaves and and and everything is is is reduced to its minimum expression in January the the burn rate is going to be reduced to 75,000 6:16so so that's where what you say isor um is true with with the $2 million uh that are left a little bit more than $2 million uh at a burn rate of 75,000 6:33th000 I think we have um let me see 28 to 30 months of Runway I see and that's based on the the current Etc price which of course may go up or down yeah that that's based on a conservative 6:53price of 25 but okay yeah when it went up to when it went up to 40 like a few weeks ago we were like okay the money is all back we come we can come back and and and this is 7:11going to 100 and then 200 and then a thousand um but um but uh no the the approach is conservative now it's down to 29 so yeah it the taking into account ET the 67,000 Etc that um Etc Cooper operative holds 7:30um plus the cash at 20 at the ETC at 25 we have 28 to 30 months of Runway currently I see I see and basically when you say um I guess core maintenance that would be developers and I guess some basic 7:52management yes but not the the the core the purpose of the ATC Cooperative is is very well defined um and the the the people in charge now are the board of the ATC Cooperative no when now obob is in charge until October 31st but the the the 8:11people in charge of making the decisions of the of how the ETC cooperative and how it's going to look like and the shape and what's going to do are the board of directors who are Elaine o Roy Zoo uh Cody Burns and Craig Sal no craon works 8:30for um grayscale uh and they have very clear that there that the the purpose of the ETC Cooperative is to maintain the protocol base protocol of Etc that's the most fundamental thing activity I think in 8:47in in the in the whole ecosystem then to maintain the client itself the the client is core gu and then um to maintain the most basic infrastructure that some other people do but the ETC Cooperative does at least 9:05uh three things that are very important one one is to maintain the ETC block Scout instance as the main block Explorer then it has the end point that it it delegated to rivet and it pays rivet uh and it's the most important endpoint 9:23everybody uses that endpoint uh so that wallets Etc when they when they need to send transac or check balances Etc they usually use that endpoint and then they have ATC Cooperative is running four enormous notes of Etc uh that they that they serve of boot notes 9:42and they also connect with thousands of peers um so they they they serve to to provide a lot of information for example for example the ETC nodes website information comes from those four notes to be able to identify all the 10:01noes and count them Etc so we know that we have 4,000 noes 6,000 noes at every at any time we know how many notes are operating in ETC because of those four notes and and then there's a layer of communications no that's why I was doing editorial and there's a marketing person still working at the ETC cooperative 10:20and it's going to be communicating minimal going to going to do minimal Communications um work in my case when I was working at the ETC Cooperative my mission was to communicate how amazing Etc is to the world no 10:37um but now that's going to be transformed into minimal Communications right understood yeah there's a number of um I guess infrastructure projects technology that is under the umbrella of Etc co-op in terms of Maintenance and deployment ongoing 10:56um that would also include the the catacomb wallet and uh as you mentioned the river and block Scout stuff so uh with this extended Runway um or I guess whether it's extended or not uh 11:13or just like streamlined um funding program then those Services have a a longer guaranteed uh yeah funding mechanism yeah the the the the everything that is basic infrastructure is going to continue that's 11:33the priority no so as as funds go diminishing we're going to keep cutting because because what we want to what we want to provide is or what they want to provide is protocol maintenance to be on par with with um ethereum and the client itself so that people can run the node and 11:53then the basic infrastructure so that that that's going to be um the the highest priority is that we're going to migrate to that smaller 12:11team in January and the organization is going to stay on in that mode for the foreseeable future understood and is the I I guess there's probably uh discussions going on about leadership and whether there'll be a 12:30new director or how that's going to go but whether it's public or not if it's uh TBD I would I would guess yes it's it's not public the board is is deciding how they're going to organize the team and who's going to lead 12:47and um and things like that details like that I think um the deadline to to to define the the the the final structure of the ETC Cooperative is going to be January 31st okay that those are all it's more like 13:06housekeeping in terms of infrastructure and priorities the money is there I mean this is something that that I told uh them that we're not in a panic mode that like a startup I I've been in many startup I had my own startups I had four startups and I have run out of money with 13:25my startups and and you are in a panic mode because you're running out of money in 30 days uh so you need to see how you're going to pay your salaries you're going to fire the the staff they all the severance payments taxes if you have any bills payable that that's an emergency shut in this case there's 13:44years of Runway and we're just scaling down so it's it's not an emergency situation it's just it's just a more efficiency I would say I I I would even say that this is responsible this is the right thing to do right um there's there's kind of diminishing returns on the amount that you can spend on 14:03things like events and uh promotion everything everything that is uh in a way nice to have like events that is $75,000 of cost um just just a two-day event 14:19um and editorial and and and Market most um more flashy marketing and things like that that that is not going to and and travel everywhere and things like that that is going to be cut um 14:37then I have my personal opinion about something I don't know if if you want me tell you my personal opinion this this is something I told the ETC Cooperative before leaving and and I and I and I think that it should be done 14:55and that is that the the history of of ethereum classic the maintenance this this core function of the maintenance of the protocol and the and the and the client um started with a group of developers 15:12who decided to to to keep maintaining the original ethereum and ethereum classic continues to be the original ethereum and and that team was later called Etc dev then came another team called Etc labs which which was a private company that they 15:31decided to fund development and and um and and they moved the client in a in a controversial move from the ethereum classic repository the ethereum classic organization on GitHub to their own corporate uh GitHub repository and organization 15:50no Etc labs and then and then they left and and and and ioh ioh came and they tried to do their own client and then when everybody when when ioh ihk left and Etc Labs left then the ETC Cooperative continued 16:08development maintenance of the protocol and development of the client but all this time it was moved from ethereum classic from the ethereum classic um uh organization to Etc labs and it's been there 16:25all this time and that's core gu and and cor gu is the client that everybody uses in the in the etherum classic uh ecosystem I think that as uh one one of the goals of the ETC Cooperative should be to return the client 16:43to the etherum classic organization um I know I know it's it's just um a kind of administrative housekeeping thing but in terms of meaning and um an image of ethereum classic to the world 17:01uh I think it's very important to do it um first is to redeem ethereum classic from that attack that historic attack that is doesn't exist anymore but but it's is to to to show uh the resilience of Etc and second because Bitcoin is in the Bitcoin repository and ethereum 17:20is in the ethereum repository and ripple is in the Ripple repository and Solana is in the Solana repository only Etc is in some XYZ repository it has to be an ethereum classic I think that's serious that shows seriousness and professionalism uh which is very important 17:38to project no so that that's my only thing that I that I left as a that um I guess there's a couple of ways of doing it one would just be forking 17:56and then continuing in the ethereum classic repo or or repo and the other would be transferring the ownership from labs to the org and the latter would be preferable but 18:13I guess requires more uh coordination yeah well no I I think that the the the the core developers of the ETC Cooperative they proposed I think a clever uh way of doing it which was 18:31for now keep maintaining it at Etc at the ETC Labs repository and in the next hard Fork when the whole ecosystem has to migrate to the new one that hard for that hard Fork to do it with a client already in the in the ethereum 18:50classic repository so that everybody has to switch from one repository to the other um at once and I thought that was a good idea yeah that would most likely work and if the links on the website were updated that would be 19:08doable the only downside with the 4 King approach is that the issues and the poor requests I guess will be lost um and remain on the old Labs or Reaper so I mean 19:26I I would say that the proposed um switch on next hard Fork is a good solution but not perfect but uh will be better than nothing better than the current situation yeah I think that 19:45the community could define whether this is important for us and I think I think that it really bothers me uh that the that the that the main client and um Flagship client of VC is in a private corporate 20:03xyc repository and not in the in the in the in the one that is the name of ethereum classic and where the ecip process is and where the website is and where the whole Community Works um so I think if if if the Community Values this change 20:23uh we can keep we can communicate it to the co cooperative and and see if they do it eventually in the next hard Fork do you know when the next hard Fork is uh estimated no when we it depends on what ethereum is going to do I I think that we 20:42are up to date with ethereum so I don't know when is the ethereum next hard Fork I've been focusing more on the market and um on the benefits of Etc rather than the the ethereum hard Fork so I don't know I know there's one but I don't know know when when it's going to be 21:00right um similar uh topic I guess is that in the that post on Etc Co-op uh with Staffing changes Bob mentioned that there are potential challenges with gu maintenance going forward and 21:19uh they're looking at maybe um the devs are looking at with fresh eyes on Bess Aragon and nethermind as uh alternatives for longterm maintenance due to the difficulties of maintaining gu when Upstream has removed the 21:37proof of work uh code pass yeah yeah that that is something to talk to the developers but the complexity of maintaining the the client increased because before you would just get from the Upstream for from go ethereum you would 21:54get the code and it included proof of work now now they they stripped it out so from now on um the core the core developers of ethereum classic have to receive from the Upstream something that does not have proof of work and they have to reintegrate 22:11it each time um so that that's an additional work or challenge uh in maintenance um so the two the two strategies what what um Bob meant there is okay we can continue maintaining an independent client cor gu with all of these 22:31uh challenges and the work that it requires Etc or we can go to an upstream client like hyperledger Basu or nether mind or go with there and ask them for us to integrate the rules of Etc there 22:53um and and the the rules of Etc live there inside um an upstream client instead of us maintaining the the independent client I think that Etc that that that that that that's being considered I think that the what's going to Prevail is to keep maintaining 23:13the the independent client but that's being analyzed uh or maybe the two in parallel just as a hedge right I I think that we have to just keep uh maintaining the core get client put 23:30it back in our repository for the community to gain full control not thec Cooperative the community to gain full control and access to the client and if for some reason in 10 years the ETC Cooperative disappears the community keeps keeps going no keep keeps M 23:49um that's what I think we have to do and if for some reason the ATC say that thec this is the year 2027 or the year 2028 and the ETC Cooperative say okay we have we have only $100 left in the bank sorry we we we have to leave at that point the ETC 24:06cooperate have to deliver the client working and stable and then leave and that's it uh as long as it is in the community repository there's no problem that's how blockchains work developers change all the time in fact Etc has had four developer teams already 24:26so this happens all the time you just have to leave the client um with with with the most updated version in a stable condition that people can run it and then somebody else is going to continue the work um right and generally 24:44uh even if there are no updates the the chain will still continue to be mined and it's unlikely there's some some critical issue that uh exactly is going to occur yeah for example yeah but 25:02always from a develop perspective when you talk to the developers they are going to they're not going to have that opinion their opinion is going to be that they worry that there's something wrong that there may be a bug and you discover it in two years and we didn't know and we thought that 25:20it was stable and then there's no one to fix it uh I think that's that's that's another Yos Yos it's a reasonable posture no yeah but it's also more likely that developers 25:39will jump in and if they notice something that can be fixed they'll be like oh let's let's patch this before it becomes an issue yeah yeah there's there there this is this is one thing that I that that I explained the to the board of the ETC Cooperative we don't have to think that the that Etc Cooperative 25:58is the savior of Etc right um and without us then Superman doesn't exist and the world is going to collapse no it uh it is going to continue uh we just have to do a good job delivering it we just have to do a good job maintaining the basic infrastructure as we 26:17are doing now we have we still have money there's no emergency and if for some reason uh the ETC Cooperative is going to cease then at that time just deliver a stable client uh in the ETC Cooperative repo 26:34and somebody else is going to take uh care of of the client in the future um that that's that's the mission to to deliver it to the community in a stable condition yep and I think that's a perfectly legit uh approach and anything that 26:53can extend the uh the lifespan of that delivering that is is probably a good thing and as we're seeing there's already other and there's constantly other teams uh stepping up and filling the void of of exactly whatever kind of thing 27:12that needs to be done uh that's very that's that's a very important thought because it's difficult to see currently the ETC Cooperative is filling a void and because the void is filled then there's no other client developers who 27:32want to come and and and and work why because the the void is filled when when in in marketplaces in Industries when somebody is already the leader for example in electric vehicles uh there there may be other competitors that become second third and fourth but once you you have a a group of 27:50companies filling the void there's no more investment in in trying to compete anymore it doesn't make sense to spend more money competing in that industry and the same thing happens in open source once you have a a good team of developers managing a system then why would other developers come when but if they leave then there's going to be a void 28:10then it makes sense for other developers to come and they will come and they will come because ethereum classic is incredibly valuable and the developers that actually work at Etc gain incredible valuable experience and they become very sought after uh because of their knowledge um 28:29so so this is this is this is to to to say that there there's no there's no emergency and that there's going to be someone who's going to fill the void if for some reason uh um development needs to migrate to a new team 28:48yeah and I'd say that void is not limited just to development but also the other things like marketing and education that you extent from Etc Co-op and there are other avenues that are doing this we've got 29:07the ETC radio stuff you've got the ambassador program which is coming up uh which I haven't looked into too much but seems to be created a video in my in my blog ather plan which is where I used to write and and 29:26create videos before working for the ETC cooperative and I am going to I I have a passion for ETC um um and I'm going to dedicate my time and everything to Etc so I'm going to continue writing uh in the on ether plan and 29:44continue contributing just like before so that's an example of how the void is filled by others that's great to hear and likewise uh uh I guess this year I've been a little hands off in terms of personal contributions I've always been volunteering 30:04but I think next year partially because of this downsizing of Etc Co-op I feel uh the void needs to be filled to some extent and I will try to step up more in terms of my contributions too yeah you you built the the ethereum class.org website that is amazing 30:24um and and that's an incredible product that's an excellent example of a of a purely voluntary um effort um yeah uh I see that uh brol LA's in the chat 30:42are you uh on the mic can good how are you Donald 31:01very well thank you um nice to hear you again guys uh one quick question that I had so if Bob was saying that he may want to 31:19uh follow the path of another client or other clients uh what will happen with uh the the 6,000 nodes about made by ETMC because there are a lot of them and I 31:37believe that their main noes are basically running uh an interface a vanill interface for cor right MH gget is going to continue to exist it's going to continue being maintained what 31:56they're studying is to get an upstream client that that works for ethereum for example cor cor is always uh receives the the new rules for the new hard forks from go ethereum that's 32:15one of the clients that exist in ethereum there's another client called nethermind um and then there's others like hyper Ledger Basu and um is B still supported by the Linux Foundation 32:35yes that one hyperledger uh the Basu and then there's another one called arigon I think and so and there's more so the idea is to go to one of those and integrate Etc to ask for 32:52permission and to have ask access and and to collaborate with with the team and to integrate Etc into that node so that node it it can it can run either etherium or Etc uh as an option um just to have it as 33:10a backup in case cor get disappears and people have to migrate to that one it's it's only a backup but core gu is going to continue to be maintained therefore atmc is going to continue to have core gu as their client yes but earlier you are saying about um coret getting 33:28um more uh more of an issue when it comes to maintenance because well proof of work is no longer there in the client that has been built maintaining 33:49the client and hiring more people or they would just look in another Direction because this could be an important topic the 34:08ETC Cooperative with the two core developers they are going to maintain poor gu even if proof of work was taken out from go ethereum um I see yeah um at least for the next hard Fork if for some reason it becomes 34:26imposs possible to maintain um I I don't know I don't know what what what they're going to do but there's always going to be a version that is that is usable for ethereum classic but at least for the next hard Fork we have I mean DTC Cooperative is going 34:46to be here for more than two years so I think uh the next hard fork for GU is going to have is going to do the hard fork and have proof of work and everything is going to be integrated it and another thing related to to the board 35:03will they decide the the next uh executive director or is that is that something they plan next year or right away or do they have any information about who lead 35:23uh the ETC C no I I am not in contact with the board lately other than the ideas that I gave them I I'm not in contact with them and I don't know what they're doing the only thing that I know is that the team is 35:40going to be reduced uh by January 1st and the spending is going to be reduced from 100,000 to 74,000 and the ETC Cooperative is going to stay um with that burn rate from then on that that's the information that I have up 35:59to now uh and final structure of the ETC Co Cooperative by by January 31st but I do not know what what is the that 36:20the board ising I don't know it's something that they they will decide but again what I said before the board the board has very clear that the base protocol the client and infrastructure are the things that they have to maintain and they and the ET C has 36:36money so one way or or another that those are the the board uh express any let's say uh improvements that they would 36:55like for the protocol because um so far we ITC basically um followed ether till uh now and even the last part for 37:13mistake was uh uh was after ether uh will they continue on this path or would they like for maybe a new vision maybe uh open grants for for E proposals or 37:31stuff like what easy proposals e easy of proposal EC 37:46ECI for the itan classic Improvement proposal ecip proposals yeah um the I know that the plan of the ETC Cooperative is to stay keep the protocol and 38:05the client on par with the ethereum virtual machine standard that means whatever hard Fork ethereum does that everybody else has to copy we're going to copy there's there's no I don't think that there's any plan to to to do things outside of the central 38:25core innovation path of of ensuring that it matches the uh the principles of Etc in that there yeah if there were changes that broke old contracts 38:45for example then um yes we would might consider skipping that one yeah for for example uh Etc is not going to implement proof of stake and it's going to keep maintaining proof of work that's that's the an example of how ITC is going to keep 39:05being Etc know immutable truly decentralized Etc uh but if there's a new OP code and that it's necessary that is going to be integrated um and then if if uh I I think that the e559 uh the core developers were studying 39:24how to integrate it in a a way that um developers can use it but at the same time that does not burn uh funds so that it doesn't change the monetary policy things like that those are adaptations of Innovations in ethereum that 39:43can be adapted to Etc without changing the principles of ET of principles of Etc I wanted to mention 40:03some interesting insights I got from watching the the videos of Devcon 7 which occurred uh last month I believe did any of you watch any of those uh conference events I didn't watch it 40:20okay um you may be interested to learn that one of the major themes this year was was make ethereum Cipher Punk again and during the intro of the the event there was a little animation that you might want to look at um that included 40:39things like ethereum is immutable ethereum is Unstoppable blah blah blah and um the idea is that etherum that there are some people within the main ethereum project that are calling out the centralization risk and 40:56the takeover of uh profit seeking entities I guess that are subverting the principles of AUM which um I believe are upheld by etherum classic much better than mainnet so I see it as maybe a potential opportunity for 41:16ethereum classic to kind of pitch itself in terms of being the original and um uh continuing to Main maintain those original Cipher Punk ideals um and having them as primary as opposed to ethereum 41:34main net which is now realizing that those things should have been more important to begin with yeah I think I think that the ethereum classic Community can how it should be can communicate to the 41:52ETC Cooperative what is desirable uh for future change changes for example we we've spoke we spoke in the past about um er er setting setting or fixing the block 42:10size to 8 million gas potentially or 12 million gas so that the block has a fixed size um and miners cannot change it anymore that would be a different a different approach than ethereum ether right than the was before no where the miners could change the block size and raise 42:30it to 30 million gas and things like that um and I and I think that the the the ET Community should be the main influence um for future for future changes 42:46um I think for example there's a there's a huge change that I wrote about called eof in ethereum that is a a big modification of the evm that if ethereum doesn't do doesn't do it I think that the community should pressure or should implement 43:05it in in ETC um because they're they're very important changes and of course um that's because I I um I I really see the independence of Etc as very important but the developers and Bob told me well the thing is that it's going 43:25to become not compatible with ethereum temporarily until ethereum implements eof um so and that's true so if if e the takes two more years to implement eof Etc is not going to be compatible with with etherum for those two years and then 43:42the other risk is that ethereum by the time ethereum implements eof they may Implement um a different version of eof and in that case we're going to have to do another hard fork and and and realign with with with ethereum but well know it's just an example 44:02of things that I think the the community should uh voice and and and mark the the future direction of of um of innovation and and development of Etc always with the principles of M of the 44:21cipher Punk principles of of immutability and Trust minimization that ethereum has my observation what occurs to me that ethereum has a like a a a subculture or a subgroup that is trying to bring back the 44:41cipher Punk principles uh to ethereum is very important because there is a there's a growing there is a growing concern in the ethereum community that ethereum has become centralized I 44:57mean very delayed no because we know that the day that they migrated to proof of stake uh ethereum died it's dead uh why because it's a centralized Fiat system they just don't know it and people don't know it the great majority of the public for buying ethereum and they 45:17doing the ETFs and they're building layer 2 systems and all that on ethereum and wallets and and thinking and doing nfts and all that they don't know that ethereum is dead because they don't know anything about this technology 99% of the people of the world don't know anything of how this technology works and 45:35the principles uh um and all that the only way they're going to learn is when they confiscate their funds in ethereum and they Fork their app and they can't use it anymore and they get censored and then they're going to say wait a minute this this was not the promise so this is why uh there there's this 45:54concern because they're realizing that ethereum is is really centralized and I'm very glad that there's people doing that uh and and that this is the basis of why I think that at some point it's going to be widely known that ethereum is dead and that they have been working 46:12all these years in a dead system dead meaning it's centralized now right and I think that ethereum classic is going to replace ethereum everybody's going to migrate to Etc uh because it's the only other viable system live that is there to immediately migrate to I believe so as well 46:32yeah I um I think that it may even be the case that uh a lot of ethereum people that joined the ethereum community after the hard Fork after etherum Classic was really in the in the spotlight they probably don't even know what a the classic 46:52is or why it exists and it may be align ethereum classic as not antagonistic to ethereum but as a kind of 47:17to the those Cipher punk people like we're actually on the same side it's just that we kind of disagree about the the end the means to achieving that end and we can we can persuade you amicably yeah if there's a they tell me that 47:36to the death def conon what was it Devcon 7 yeah they said it it was they told me there it was the biggest one there were 12,000 people uh and and there's like a subculture in ethereum that wants to go back to The Cypher Punk um principles yes 47:55we we can tell them that we are allies of that our that our strategy is to use ethereum classic that's the that's the trueu their strategy is to try to change ethereum which is a Monumental task it's something that it's too 48:13costly it's too big um to to they're going against people with uh vested interests that don't want to allow it to be Cypher exactly people 48:31we can somehow make noise and and and invite them to see this the there there is the there is a a real and true objective uh thing that that happens is that the all the liquidity and the network effects are with ethereum not with Etc 48:50um so it's very difficult and very costly to to to to Market Etc to people and expect that it's going to gain market share and become um replace ethereum just by marketing 49:08I think um I mean it would it would cost billions of dollarss to explain to the world this and to actually accomplish the switch the to switch the world from ethereum to Etc so I think it it has to happen organically by 49:26ethereum Dying by itself I think that's that's that's true for the majority of people that are not really interested in the tech or the philosophy and they will basically just follow whichever is alive and working but 49:45I think there is there is a a small group of genuine Believers of Cipher Punk philosophy that exist within ET ethereum and ET that cannot really be persuaded by traditional marketing anyway like they're not going to see an advertisement 50:03but they do care about the principle and I think um kind of I I'm still working on this idea but maybe the The Branding or the the the narrative could be updated to some extent 50:21to to to try and capture those those guys um hearts and a um that that but that's a good me segment that you caught and that you observed and and it's a segment that we could 50:40work on specifically in my case for because because now as of December 31st I'm going to be out of a job and I'm not going to have a job I was thinking of getting a a sponsor a donor for ethereum classic 50:59that would donate to excuse me for ether plan my my my brand that works on ethereum classic um to get a donation and because what I do is content and marketing and and um explaining these things that that's my mission in in my life 51:18is one of the missions in my life is to explain to the world why ethereum classic has to replace ethereum and become the largest blockchain in the world together with Bitcoin um and what I would what I wanted to do is get all the biggest blockchain 51:35meetup groups in in Vancouver Seattle San Francisco Los Angeles New York Chicago London Berlin Shanghai Hong Kong Etc and for a year 51:51go to call them invite tell them that we donate Pizza and and and the beers and everything and and that we can go and chat for an hour to to to their to their group no to all the ethereum blockchain groups this is this is a campaign that I was going to do in 2019 for 52:11ETC Dev but um but was cancelled because Etc Dev was replaced by Etc Labs um so this is this is to go in in these meetups and explain all the things that I always always explain Etc is the true one it's truly decentralized e ethereum 52:31is dead e Etc is going to replace it why because these are and I explain my nine reasons and usually when I explain these things in person people say yes I'm sold and they and sometimes they even buy immediately uh they in front of me they buy Etc because they are so convinced of the 52:51truth right um because the truth is the truth so I wanted to this this tour and and now that you say this I could I could focus my tour in the in that community in that sub subculture within ethereum yeah and I think the the meetup groups are much more likely they have a higher 53:11ratio of True Believers compared to just um you know uh in it for the the money people I believe yeah and I I I I genuinely think that sorry I think that yeah when the chain 53:29doesn't have massive VC funds then the type of idea that you just mentioned like going to meetups and it's almost like Guerilla Warfare where you have to think outside the box for for marketing and targeting specific message and uh persuasion through ideology as opposed to 53:49just spending money on ads is definitely I think the the only way we can uh we can spread the word yes I agree so I hope to find a a donor a sponsor uh soon do you have any Targets in terms of raising 54:09and maybe you could do like a a fund raise like a an like a a oneman Ico or something like one one is to do um uh 54:27uh a fundraise that starts on I'll say on January 1st and ends on January 30 and communicated to the community and that the community contributes but usually that that contribute when when I've done that in the past I received like 54:42$1,000 or ,500 but to do a world tour you need $150,000 we need we need a big donor big big donors what 55:01my my cost that I calculated in in 2019 was um $200,000 to do the whole tour for a year um and um because this requires me to be dedicated fulltime to to this effort uh it's not part-time or something like that 55:21um and and it required the whole ticket the airline ticket the hotel the travel and donating the food and the drinks to each Meetup um and so I guess now with inflation it must be around $250,000 I would have to do the numbers 55:40interesting yeah I think the uh it's a great idea uh it's outside the the normal approach and I think uh if anyone's able to promote it it's you yeah yeah because a lot of people are talking about Etc 55:59no it main for example um and now the ATC Cooperative without me and um but they don't know they they they they don't see it the same way they they they um I mean I I see that bitmain for example 56:17they repeat slogans and things like that like you say Ad like common advertising but that that is not effective I I when when I explain Etc um people really understand the full logic 56:32of the right of the situation um and the great majority didn't even know the proof of stake was centralized and and they just see when of the people at the theorum they say this is decentralized this is immutable um then this is censorship resistant 56:52and uh it's going to be private and that there's a uh a road map and the road map is going to be better and better and better and they just believe that why because they don't know they don't have any notion of these things and they don't know the principles and they don't know what technologies actually fit the principles 57:11uh but when I explain these things and because I explain it in a layman's terms people immediately understand the difference and they become Etc here in Oklahoma for example I have friends that are total Etc Buffs it's funny it's funny because we're 57:30here in in the in the rural areas of Oklahoma and we I have people that are buying Etc they're mining Etc uh it's like a little island of Etc here because they because they're hear me all the time we we we do a barbecue and I talk to them about what's going on and things like that and and and they just 57:48see the truth that's cool yeah I think uh you should definitely do that and uh hopefully someone hears this and uh Tres to make it happen yeah yeah I'm going to see I'm going to see if I can get the donation 58:06cool well we are coming up to an hour which is usually about the time we spend on these calls and uh it's nice to hear everyone uh everyone's voice for the first time in a while and uh glad we're able to catch up at the end of this 58:24year hopefully we can and get on a bit more of a regular schedule in 2025 as the uh the Carp Is reducing its uh output we can kind of fill the void there and try and uh brainstorm come with ideas of of how to um to make the best of 2025 58:45so yeah we'll see you all next year thanks everyone for coming to this chat and uh yeah see you next time take care bye-bye thank you very very much

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