Q&A with Bob Summerwill, ETC Coop

0:07for people to join the etc wreck is that the bot yeah i think so that's bro people 1:35here so we might as well kick things off um so thanks for joining us everyone this is a uh a weekly call that we're doing now for the community and same time pretty much every week so you can join us every tuesday um to discuss things etc this 1:54week we have bob samwell director of etc co-op joining us uh so thank you bob joining us we've collected a bunch of questions from the community discord channel and we have a lot of questions so uh if we could please limit discussion um until we get to the end and then there'll be time to open up questions so to start off thanks for joining us bob 2:14how are you today rainy vancouver it's uh it has been looking like we're gonna have a a white christmas here get there get the snow in but it's gone a little bit rainy now so it's all gray and typical 2:32there we go i hope everyone is ready for their holiday fun are your thoughts on the thoughts what are your thoughts on the state of etc today 2:58you know i think we're in a challenging place um where uh a clear road map i don't think um that everyone is rallying behind you know 3:16i think we had um had this this phase of well you know what what are we gonna do how we're gonna react which ended up with with thanos and mess and getting to stability and 3:35then through most of this year then we've had um the treasury hanging um and at least in terms of iohk's uh proposal for that that uh uh 3:53you know hit hit its end in in september and then we have the departure of ihk following on from that um co-op side we we have um a 4:12rare luxury about actually having some some funds you know that following the the price rises that we have this year uh the the fees from grayscale turned into a really rather big pile of money so that's that's uh that's that's helpful as 4:32for um you know you'd see labs and and the core side well you know there's obviously not a a great deal of uh uh of of action there um the actually the etsy labs.org domain actually 4:53appears to have expired as well the website is not there anymore um basically right now it's just edc co-op as the active major team in the space pretty much yeah so 5:18yeah i mean you know we have side but what i think we really don't have is is you know an agreed direction and roadmap you know what what does 5:362022 look like um the the way i was was thinking at the start of the year um and and yeah so so really uh heading 5:54for 2022 coming to consensus on what you know what the real priorities are i think uh is is is the real gap that we have at the moment we've got mystique ongoing you know so there was the core devs call earlier this morning um talking 6:13through um a slight scope change and timing change um but that's you know just sort of ongoing uh maintenance work um and look looking like that we'll we'll go ahead there's obviously ongoing work on both um 6:32gorgeth and and bezou um just in terms of uh you know ongoing maintenance and development um that's something which has changed this year on the bezu side because we've had diego join co-op 6:52as our as our first full-time core developer so he's focused on on bezier so that's that's been um that's been a good step up because since 2019 where we support started funding um bazoo all of that work has always been um short-term 7:11contracts really focused around the uh around the hard forks we haven't had the capacity to actually contribute to just you know general health and maintenance and improvement of the uh of the client so that's now happening so that's 7:28good we've had um a switch over to rivet for the rpc endpoints so that's been a uh that's been a good quality step up i think really looking back on that the reliability issues that we were hitting 7:49were actually symptomatic of increased usage um through this year you know that as as we've had the price increases the there has been increased usage as well um so um rivers are now handling the back end of that and that's that's been good um 8:08you know we've had ongoing support for uh for block scout as well um given the lack of consensus has been around first um first treasury also 8:28kekkak has not been you know completely universally loved um you know 2021 has has largely been a fairly stationary kind of year in terms of in terms of the platform itself cover 8:48there and uh yeah uh it's it's good to to understand that thanks uh i'm gonna combine a couple of points into the next question about funding and basically from a community perspective we would like 9:07to understand more about what the actual runway looks like for etc as it currently stands and what how those funds are likely to be allocated going forward and is there a concept of having a bare minimum and how much is that and could that be contributed 9:26publicly um by the community to help out in some way the situation to my understanding is over over these last few years um with the exception of some 9:44etc with the ethic which the ethereum foundation um contributed to the co-op via virgil which was in 2018 apart from that the the only source of funding that there's been on ecc has been uh 10:01from greyscale uh the funding which dfg have uh have provided for labs and i need to see core and iohk's own spending on on mantis um on supporting um chris 10:20severino's let's talk ecc as well um funding that they had for kevin when he was community manager there so iohk you know they left at the end of 2018 um they returned they've 10:40left again so so there's no funding coming from there expectation on dfg and etc labs is that that funding will end very very soon um they had 10:58through um 2019 and 2020 they had the incubator they had grants program they had quite a large um team within each c corp as in you know they weren't just just doing core geth they were doing uh expedition um 11:18they were doing jade um llvm evm um you know various other projects around the side um all of that with the exception of core geth was defunded in january 2021 um so 11:38you know all of those all of those people even even social media side pr people um dean um all of the developers um with the exception of the korgf guys you know those all just dropped out so 11:59and then my expectation is that that you know that will come to an end very very soon so then that leaves the only ongoing source of funding coming in to the ecosystem being grayscale so grayscale since 2017 have funded the the co-op um 12:19using funds from their etc trust so that has three percent a year fees and they have given a third of those fees to the co-op um on an ongoing basis so 12:37through sort of days that that was a fairly decent amount through 2019 2020 you know where where prices were low um 12:55that was only really enough to pay salaries well first for myself and yaz and then myself and steve then myself and kevin um and it was basically you know not 13:14a lot of of money through this year you know that's turned into a a pretty chunky amount so i think we've got about four million which is pretty amazing um but that comes to a close in april of 13:322022 and i do not expect that to continue so my expectation is that we are going to have the pile of money that we have we'll get a few more months worth of top up on that so if prices hold you know maybe that's another million um but then there will be basically 13:52no money coming in there will be that pile that we have which is a us dollar pile we've actually we have got some etc as well but the usd usd is is more um there's also the community fund which is completely separate from the co-op um 14:12but that has just been sitting there for a number of years there is not what doesn't appear to be any kind of real mechanism for for that to be allocated or spent but it's becoming a fairly sizable amount i'm not sure how big it is donald might have a an up-to-date 14:30figure i think it was around a million-ish equivalent now it's a 16 000 etc which is more or less 560 000 at 14:47today's prices so so that's about the funds that there are um the co-op to this point has been around six 15:06or seven hundred k a year um that's been with very very minimal grants or spending beyond you know salaries infrastructure that we're running um 15:29being added so as you know if we if we're spending more on on core developers then obviously that that spend is gonna is gonna go up um but still several years worth we could have at that level um 15:49but that's basically it's it's not including um you know significant chunks of spending for solving large systemic issues that we have um in the platform for example in terms of um 16:09you know in terms of in terms of bloat um in terms of general you know sustainability with the new sort of reality um that 16:29edc is in how do you think uh spending should be changed if any in any way and should there be a focus more on just basic client maintenance as opposed to other 16:45outreach programs so um something that we had where while etc labs were you know were more active and and did have their incubator and grants program is is 17:06you know an an a number of attempts from them at um building up ecosystem so things like the the chainsafe bridge that the wetc um there 17:24were platform level spending things also you know funding of particular projects or teams on top of etc i mean that it's it's only to my knowledge during that phase that we've really had um funding 17:41being provided for for that development on etc now i mean given that we we now at the or the co-op have you know a larger a larger pile of money you know that doing some kind of grants program or something based on that is is certainly 18:00feasible the question is whether that's going to be effective i mean this is something that that donald's spoken about a number of times as well is is you know do you you know is that kind of like artificially like pumping things up in a way that you're not going to get value for money on your spending 18:21or is is the reality that you know we are competing with all of these other chains and there are you know giant amounts of funding available um in in other ecosystems and and you know projects um 18:40that that's the competitive space that you that you're looking at is is um if if somewhere is well funded and it's an ebm chain um it's it's quite likely that uh that teams will follow that money you know that they're not going to be so um building 19:03so we could do that but is it is that good or not i'm not yeah sure seems like etc would have trouble competing with massive budget chains like that and you know you see you see this um i 19:23mean both with l2s and and just all other kind of uh of uh projects or platforms even even if they're not a chain layer if even if they're just sort of a you know an ecosystem within a given chain that uh you know you've got hundreds of millions of dollars available in in many many places 19:44um for for that kind of ecosystem um grants program so we certainly can't compete at that level yeah i agree and i think that for for the grants definitely uh those kind of development teams that are looking for funding 20:04for money basically or mercenaries for hire as i put them uh and not competable with big chains but there are projects that are looking for something else in etc which i think is the real 20:18future for development growth there treasury 2.0 and you alluded to previously the idea of pushing for a new version of the treasury and have you had any thoughts on that are there any updates you'd like to provide the 20:38community on that uh no real updates uh i mean just just the thinking there is that you know we are very likely in a position within three or four months time where there's no more money coming in from anywhere um and 20:59that is not a great place to be um if you know more if we had i don't know if we had like you know 10 million 20 million uh you know kind of kind of figures it you 21:18there sort of at a point where doing a kind of like endowment fund kind of model becomes feasible right where you can where you can you know manage your manage your internal treasury and hopefully you know invest that in it in a way that it can it can be um ongoing 21:38indefinitely um i mean if if if crypto prices you know have a another ballooning then obviously you know everyone's got more runway that way but but you know we're really in a position of of sort of managing 21:56you know managing the this this sort of last phase at the moment um and i certainly don't think that that's a great place to be i mean maybe that's the best that we can get to you know maybe we but uh they're feeling against any kind of uh um you 22:16know any kind of treasury deal how no matter how small you know if if the feeling against that is is is so strong that we couldn't build the consensus then you know we are we are where we are and we'll do what we can do but um but 22:35yeah i mean i i would certainly hope that we can get to a place where we can be sustainable and i think that the the reality of where we are on etc that you know with the the that 22:54the lack of funding that we've got you know coming in um i i can only really see new funding coming in that kind of way um you know through a a small um and an 23:13open um treasury setup where anyone could uh you know anyone could um come in and apply you know that it wouldn't be pre-divided up it wouldn't be hardcoded it would be you know a an open um an 23:31open and transparent kind of setup um i mean obviously way better if you can have um you know kind of an organic kind of setup where um the platform is is organic 23:52ecosystem growing about it and those can contribute back into it you know if you look at if you look at bitcoin for example um the reason that that bitcoin works without any central funding is because there are you know hundreds thousands of companies that are that are building on 24:11and around bitcoin and also that you've got a very large number of of whales and people who have you know who've made a gigantic amount of money and are are are you know able to to to fund that back in and you say they see the same kind of thing 24:29on on on ethereum um though you know they've obviously got the the the ef uh giant bucket of money there but you know you you again have numerous um projects that have you 24:49know that have built something real on on ethereum and are you know are generating funds and have got money and then are contributing back in to for example into the git coin grants program i mean that's just a fantastic kind of uh success 25:08i think that uh that with git coin grants you've you've got the uh you know the the contributions and sort of like you know the money is being steered by the small contributors um but then with quadratic quadratic funding 25:26you've got you know chunks of money being put in by originally it was just the ef and consensus but now it's many many different teams and projects that are putting money into that public funding bucket ecosystem 25:45so you know i don't see a white knight coming in um we have to work from where we are now 26:08talk about potential ideas for the roadmap for 2022. 26:11i know it's difficult to come to consensus um especially after everything that's happened but do you have at least a starting point um and where can we go from here do you think in terms of a plan for 2022 in terms of ecips and other 26:28things to work on i um the the work on cac for example it's it's it's you know it's kind of a bit stalled really 26:48um i think you know we're definitely going to keep going on that um but but um coming to consensus on on whether that's going ahead or not is proving hard um i will 27:06certainly be exploring looking at um looking at alternative treasury options um we in terms of um hard forks of changes coming from ethereum i think you know things are really 27:25kind of slowing slowing down a fair bit there so um guess there's going to be some eips coming out of that that would that would make sense on ecc i mean bits not related to the merge itself you know just other other changes 27:46that are popping in there um but beyond that um i mean when we when we do get to that point of the merge we really are in a place where we are going to need to be you know standing on our own feet and um and you 28:04know looking looking back to um number of changes that were proposed there which never quite came to fruition which i think are worth looking back on again to do with bloat so 28:22for example um one of the changes actually that's in um mystique is a a sort of a largely anti-gas token measure which has finally come to fruition so that 28:40would be good um beyond that we have to um have 28:58is that um on the research side we just don't have any you know if you look on on ethereum as well as the the actual core developers working on the client software 29:15you've always had this swathe of of researchers which are looking at these these bigger ticket items and um and so both on that research side and on security side and on um uh 29:36developers and their needs you know you've got you've got lots of people who are who are working ahead of those protocol changes and that's an area where we're just really sorely lacking you know we have community 29:54we have users we've got core developers but we don't really have that research side um you know have these big ticket needs that we that we know we have where the solutions to those are going to 30:13come from is is is maybe not quite so obvious you know and again maybe you know maybe that's an area of staffing up where um you know we'll have to take on some expenditure to to see if we can bring in that kind of skill 30:31set how big of a threat do you think this is for the future and how pressing is it and also what are your thoughts on solutions do you prefer reducing the gas limit or having longer blocks or some other 30:50solution i don't have i don't have figures to hand as to where where we are now you know over the last year or two how uh how much that's that's changed i know we are 31:10certainly a lot bloatier than we were um it's it's a major issue um some of the um are 31:30going to involve um you know major data structure um the eragon client formerly known as turbo geth those 31:48guys have have done pretty amazing work at really reimagining um how how a client can work and um you know vastly reduced sync times and uh 32:09and and disk usage and so on aragon does not currently support etc um but is built in a really quite modular way such that etc support i think could be added um 32:31one of the questions i saw [Music] talking about today was was was talking about multiple clients was saying you know is it is it worth having multiple clients or would it be bad to focus on a single one um that's something i've thought about a little bit before as well with 32:51regard to aragon is um is is weather uh a focus on on aragon over corgath or as well as corgath i think that's something that's likely to 33:08move us of that state bloat i mean what they're doing there is is not controlling the gas limit on the way in you know they're just dealing with the existing situation better um 33:29i mean whether whether that is sufficient or not um i'm not sure i mean the issue i think that there always has been with um the gas limit because i i i authored an ecip that was proposing um 33:47either a fixed gas limit for ecc or one which was sort of following moore's law kind of curve so it was um slowly increasing but i think the issue with that is is just that what 34:10that's going to do is it's going to rule out particular gaps being workable the dap shortage that we already have i don't know that that's something which is 34:27going to serve us well i think i think that the worst element that that there's been has been like spam attacks like gas token you know where the space is literally being filled up with 34:45zeros you know you know that there is no like real value in what's being done there it's a pure um you know attack on a uh a poorly calibrated incentive mechanism the 35:06that mystique change and and see how how that affects gas token and it's like the turbo death is there any hopium potentially that after 35:24the merge some of this talent will need a new home and have the ability to contribute to etc as a continuation of the uh sort of old school ethereum i'm not sure and the reason why i say that 35:43is that um my expectation looking back a couple of years or what have you where um there was this talk of f2 right you know here you go his that you know 36:03the proof of stake it will be sharded um it will have these different execution environments so maybe things are iwasm maybe things are evm um and 36:23it was unclear what the transition plan would be to get to that but it was fairly clear that that was a new a new thing which was being built right that you would you would you you'd be in f2 world and and 36:40that would be a new and a different um what's actually happened in terms of the launching of the beacon chain first um and then where 36:59really what's happened with the merge is is to my mind it's almost like a bit of a giving up on on a good number of those of those goals you know ewasm has died on the on the road the evm is is the answer and 37:19what you what you get with the merge is is really sort of saying well we're we we're going to keep running the f1 execution environments but the consensus is going to be switching to um [Music] 37:40the consensus is switching to use the beacon chain but effectively what you're going to have at this merge point is as though they just kept going with the existing clients and and it's just like well it's you know it's proof of stake instead of proof of work but everything else stays the same so 37:59it's still evm and there's still no sharding you know and the ethereum one clients are gonna just continue as was you know they're not getting replaced with ethereum two clients um 38:18you've you've got the beacon chain clients which i guess you'd kind of call ethereum two clients but but those code bases are running as well um and what you've got then on those execution environments like geth and bazoo and um 38:37and aragon and uh never mind and so on is is really like a continuation of of the norm you know they're not stopping they're not being replaced which is what it looked like it would happen right was that was that you would have these you'd have these new f2 38:55clients that have been built as many of eight as many as eight of them at one point i think there's maybe about four or five that are left going now but the expectation really was that okay initially those were getting the the beacon chain but then they'd have the execution bits in 39:14them and then you know they would go on and the the f1 clients would be dead right and so then from an etc point of view um looking at geth for example well you know yeah we're still going to need geth and ethereum 39:32would not need geth anymore well that isn't how it's worked out you know you are going gonna have death forever so i don't know that there's gonna be really like you know uh core devs left you know left unneeded that 39:52isn't gonna be the case you're gonna have those those clients continuing to be used um for ethereum and and also obviously for a lot of ethereum downstreams uh other than ecc you know there are many many evm chains uh 40:11which are using geth variants in the same way that we are and and yeah i don't i don't think that the merge approach is really going to resolve and result in anything very different there it's actually quite a a different pattern 40:30than than i'd thought it was going to be it's a messier pattern um you know it's it's it's kind of really the case i think that uh that the l1 chain on ethereum has not really solved any anything in terms of um 40:50in terms of scalability um the the only real output that you're gonna have of of the work since 2015 now so it's like six years worth of work um and i think the the only practical thing that you're going to have is that 41:08you've switched um you know from a proof of work to a proof of stake scheme that kind of ethereum but with a different consensus is something that's existed in code bases since 2014 you know that you've had things 41:28like um like rsdb that later became monacs where they were using tendermint code 41:49bases um again replacing um either you know proof of authority or validator schemes or um or you know alternate consensus you know that's that's not a hard problem 42:10there are many many of those in the world already and and and what you have with emerges is is just another of those it's just on the largest by far uh uh chain and ecosystem that there is in the public 42:29space so it's you know not to underestimate the coordination effort that was needed to get to that point and they're still needed to to carry it out but what that means practically is that the code bases are not really so different with the exception of that new piece um 42:51one thing that they will be sacrificing is uh proof of work and that means potentially an opportunity for ethereum classic to pick up a bunch of uh gpu miners who might also bring additional interest to the chain how do you think the merge and the potential of getting these miners jives with the idea of switching to a new 43:10mining algorithm how how do you see the future playing out in this regard there's there's different thoughts there short term and long term a 43:35change of consensus is is appealing um but longer term i mean the you know to my mind the whole kind of main rationale or thought behind looking at cackack is 43:55that was essentially as as a means of holding off a6 44:14prior to the transition of to proof of stake and you know the um you know the the goal for for ethereum to transition to proof of stake you know like the timelines have just shifted on that like so many times um you know like i think it was you 44:34know maybe it would initially happen in the as early as 2015 you know um and then it's just dragged on and on and on but that um a basic resistance was was really it it's 44:54it's to do with that proof of stake um timeline you know and and that transition right that the the the asic resistance was purely to hold the space for that and then that's something that etc has inherited right 45:13you know it the uh um the consensus that we've inherited was was chosen chosen by other people for another goal um and i mean ultimately you know there were some 45:33great uh um discussions at edc summit 2019 along these lines where really um is 45:53not really asics per se it's unfair um availability to that hardware right you know it's it's it's an uh uneven playing field and it's and it's the thought that um kind 46:19of um a less fair economic kind of playing field than gpus you know the thought that well you know gpus are more widely available um so you know that that that is is going to be 46:38a more sort of equitable kind of set up um what miners are doing is providing security to the network you know that's that's that's the value that they're that 46:57they're providing right you know it's just a straight um kind of incentives deal of of saying well hey you know you you provide network security um and you will be paid for that well there 47:18in 2020 we didn't have a lot of security um maybe that's been uh [Music] adequately um rectified by by thanos and mess or maybe it has not but um really 47:38the thought there on on on was that you know nobody nobody is is is owed um their ability to to continue to make money on there gpu miners you know that you you really have a 47:56pretty industrial scale kind of setup for gpus as well you know the the the the sort of thought that anyone can just go and get a graphics card and get that set up and so on you know that that that is not really the economic reality for most people that 48:14any kind of edge that you have in terms of um being able to buy things cheaper uh electricity costs a primary thing um it is an industrial scale kind of thing now 48:34mining that it is not really going to be economical for for small players and you know that that that kind of thought of well think about the little guys that doesn't actually help pcc thinking about the little guys um you 48:52want you know you want hash rate you want a lot of hashrate and and that is primarily going to come from you know large industrial scale operations not from little guys so um [Music] the 49:12thought really on carecak is well what is the the simplest what is the simplest kind of thing that you can do um and that is a that's to do something you know really very similar uh to to what you have on on bitcoin is is just to use a you know a standard hash algorithm and take 49:32out all the dag and all of the gobbledygook which is which is there um to meet this asic resistant uh basic resistance need which was really in place for a for another 49:47end goal given that we do have the merge probably happening q1 q2 of this next year um i 50:07think would be better suited for for later um i'm aware that we're very close to the hour so at this point i wanted to open up questions to the rest of our participants so if anyone has any questions please feel free to jump 50:27in thank you please go ahead thank you bob um i want to congratulate you first it was a very hard year and 50:46interesting in the same time uh you did a great work thank you very much thank you uh one thing that i want to ask you is just a personal curiosity and [Music] maybe you can tell me did 51:05the etc labs agree with the sweeping mechanism disagree with it no um that was purely from iohk's side that that 51:24was just a total hard line in the sand from charles i also know you have some some new some development development news for us do 51:44you want to share it now uh not today i'm afraid soon i hope okay uh another question is about the confirmation times it's been almost a year since the more 52:03than any than a year since uh the network is more secure uh the thing the confirmation times will go lower next year which have got you know really which are really problematic to individuals like 52:23please do feel to feel free to like raise those to me and i can try and talk to them i mean ultimately the exchanges do what the hell they want but we can try for sure um another 52:39question is uh is about git coin do you think we can we can use that platform for future improvements there is though is that um 53:05steer the money right that you can have projects you know put up there put up their proposals and and people can choose to um put their money where they where they where they choose but i mean git coin is not a funding source 53:29you'd be looking for from from get coin uh i mean the git coin grants as i was talking about there on the ethereum side you know i think that that that is a great kind of model but the other thing that is needed for that to work really well with the quadratic funding model that they 53:48have is that you do have to have a good number of um of people who are contributing to those grants you know not not in a large amount of ways but you know you to get the signal where that you need you need to have a lot of people who are effectively 54:07kind of voting with their feet those individuals um i have another question it's uh it's related 54:23about the threats the blockchain industry will face next year we saw this year a china ban a russia ban an iran ban a turkey ban and so on uh how do you how do you see next year they think more 54:43threats or regulations or government interventions may affect the development development of blockchain industry i'm not worried it just happens again and again it's the same 54:59story every year right ultimately blockchain technology is unstoppable um unless you have it in a weakened site kind of centralized form where 55:17um where you know ultimately the control does sit in a single place so in terms of broader crypto i'm not worried at all really uh 55:39does the move to chat ray imply uh an ossification of the protocol like more like bitcoin is this a path we should think about in 55:552033 thought for me um you know that that that my thinking there on on carecak is that it it's an endpoint that you can that you can stick with for a very long time right that's that's really the goal um 56:14in a way where if you're doing asic resistance it's a it's a cat and mouse game um well-tested hash is 56:34is something that you can just stick with for a very long time grace grayskill has has a lot more projects now they think that development 56:53teams may start operating together or find a way to bring innovation from one chain to another yes 57:15like yes no so that isn't really how they work um i mean grayscale is a very like sort of conventional finance company really you know that happens to operate within um within the blockchain world as 57:33you say they have a very large number of of funds now they've really ramped that up over this last year or two um they the the goal that they've had has always been um to get these funds converted into etfs into exchange 57:53traded funds right that they would just be a very conventional etf that you could buy at any brokerage um and you know getting that mainstream you know realization you know with with um they are pushing for that hardest uh on bitcoin that 58:13they they just recently announced that they were they were sending a letter to the sec really like um pointing out that the the sec's approval of the bitcoin futures etf that was recently um 58:34doing that is very inconsistent with with not approving a spot market etf um so i'm i'm pretty confident that grayscale will have a you know a conventional bitcoin etf very soon and that following on from that their other funds would um you know follow on quite 58:53quite soon um ecc is is quite unique in the um in the the co-op receiving those uh those fees from grayscale they don't do that for any other platform um and it's purely 59:12down to barry and barry's you know etc uh love and affiliation that that has been the case so there isn't you know in terms of other funds that they have or whatever there's no equivalent etc co-op kind of deal 59:30so so yeah no okay um what do you think about uh a bridge to the metaverse on etc so i mean in terms of metaverse stuff generally 59:49i think i'm a bit a bit cagey about it um my my own background most of my career was in video games i worked for electronic arts for 15 years you know it was exciting to see um 1:00:09you know vr really coming to reality with with oculus and similar things but i think i'm just a bit cynical about the whole you know metaverse kind of buzzer word because there's nothing really new you know like everything that you've that you've had with 1:00:30with vr and virtual worlds and stuff i mean it's been going on for years and and yeah you know maybe if you you've got um um if you've got blockchain based assets and nfts and things representing things in a metaverse it you know it kind of makes sense 1:00:48but i don't think we're gonna see anything like very exciting and real happening in metaverse in the next little while there'll be you know it's it's a real hype cycle kind of thing going on um if you look at decentraland for example which is another um 1:01:08which is another uh grayscale uh fund um kind of project and and and dcg supported i mean that's been around since i know 2017 or so you know and and now it's kind of hot because of metaverse 1:01:30but you know i think it's it's a it's there's going to be an awful lot of spending on metaverse stuff um in the next little while and it does not excite me very much yet i think there's going to be a load of garbage happening but there'll be some some useful stuff there but um 1:01:50you know it could take a decade before it's like really real how are you for time are you okay for another uncomfortable question something 1:02:10please go ahead question from jt in the community call notes uh he wants to know if since classic 1:02:26swap failed that maybe the cop will create a dx and use that income to fund uh yeah it's a bit deported well 1:02:45yeah that's that's a question well i mean yeah certainly you know anyone can start a dex project um you know it doesn't have to be the co-op um you know as to whether that would bring in money or not i i you know i i don't know you you need it's one of these chicken neck things right 1:03:04where you need you're gonna need a lot of uh of a volume for that to be the case um dex i mean i i remember right back at the start of my involvement on on ethereum that there were people trying 1:03:23to build taxes in 2015 um and you know and it was an ongoing thing you know sort of the birth of dex world but it it it took you know a good number of years before really 1:03:41uniswap um really made that you know a real reality but the reason that worked is that there were huge range of vrc20 tokens that were active and live on ethereum you know you'd gone through ico 1:04:00peak um and there were you know so there was lots of that stuff around um to to to launch adax on etc um but i don't i don't know that that's going 1:04:19to see a lot of volume or certainly revenue generation in any kind of hurry um because there isn't anything to to really uh to 1:04:28trade there we we missed you you are moot at the moment from 1:05:01there like withdrawing and depositing it takes literally a minute how come ethereum classic takes two hours that will be down to how they have configured their uh their confirmations out or it's ridiculous it's really bad yeah 1:05:21i would agree um and and some of that you know maybe just this sort of lagging thing off of the 51 attacks where a number of the exchanges you know ramped up their confirmation times really significantly you know to like to keep safe um 1:05:41and then in some cases they've obviously like stayed um stayed in a with with settings which are now quite ridiculous you know that we all had it had a significant amount more hash rate um now than then but 1:06:00they will not have adjusted down accordingly so so yeah like just just to say to anyone if you are hitting these things on exchanges that you are using please do let me know and i can try and talk to them and they may or may not listen elk 1:06:22around is that true i've heard that from somebody around the chat i'll grant no i've never been fired greg 1:06:40colvin who used to be a and there's a an ethereum core developer did some work for our ground for a while that's about all i know i think sylvia is a genius like he's a cryptographer and just like he's he does really well for the community yeah he he seems to be a very competent kind of guy so 1:06:58yeah it's one of the professor chains chime in uh back on the question from jt about 1:07:17the decks um most of the taxes they they start but then then run run run into problems uh with regularization um what's your opinion on taxes and uh regularization uh so regulation you mean just 1:07:37regulators having yeah um yeah yeah i mean they that that that is certainly the case that they are uh uh a real target for for regulation um you know because they're they're basically running an exchange [Music] 1:07:58and exchanges are um you know they are money uh that are often the junction between uh between crypto and and fiat so 1:08:16that they are you know their their primary target for for regulators to um to be looking at and then you have on it on a deck you do have this this you know this very odd characteristic of that they are providing that kind of functionality um but 1:08:35without working in the same kind of way at all you know that conventional exchanges you know they really are holding your funds they are custodial um and on a decks you have a very different kind of setup so um so 1:08:53yeah i'm not sure where things have ended up with for um for uni swap and sushi swap um i saw something recently where sushi are are getting a real world legal entity is that right maybe somebody else knows more than me that they kind of came 1:09:13to the conclusion that they they kind of needed that um and uniswap have uni swap labs but yeah how [Music] how much uh hassle they get i i don't know but uh yeah i can certainly see it being uh a 1:09:37your life for you to do that can i ask a question is torah please go ahead um bob 1:09:56i i it's fine i'm i i would totally support the almost in the case that atc lab leaves and a future consolidation of the node in in turbo geth if 1:10:13if they have this this new format and data structures etcetera that help with bloat i don't see any problem for ethereum classic to be only a toboggan node network and also i don't see any problem etc being 1:10:32the only um entity funding core development i think that's fine you said something that you changed your opinion or your view about the migration of s12 your original plan was more chromatic and all 1:10:51the notes had to change because of e-wasm and stuff like that but now it's much less traumatic in that sense because the same ions that are used in each one used in ethereum two so my first question is does that mean that ethereum two is not going 1:11:09to be sharded or is it going to be sharded that's the first question the second question is does that also mean that etc may still continue to inherit evm uh even when ethereum 2 migrates thank you so 1:11:29in in terms of sharding um my understanding is sharding is a future thing that there's been some work on but it's it's a future thing so um given how poor 1:11:47ethereum has been at hitting milestones and deadlines and things even for things which are well defined um you know sharding may not even happen ever or it might be years and years away um 1:12:11with the merge is you know it's a bit of an anti-climax it is just literally like well you've got your ethereum one clients and you're going to be running that process but you need to be running another process for the for the beacon chain um consensus 1:12:32and um apis have been built for those two things to talk to each other um you know so what you will have at the merge is is is a is a hard fork on the um on the execution side you know so the the f1 client side of 1:12:52of of effectively like talking to the to the beacon chain side and following following that as a as approved as opposed to the uh um you know the longest most work chain so so 1:13:11yeah what that means at that merge point is is really kind of like nothing very much the chain continues as is it's just the consensus has changed um but on the ground that means that you've you've got these two clients that you have to be running not one because this this big changeover has just 1:13:31not happened it's just this kind of um cobbled together half thing um but yeah i think what that what that will mean um and espec especially the fact that you know ewasm isn't really happening and evm you know has kind of won it's kind of ossified on 1:13:50its own um that will mean that we can continue i think to inherit that um to inherit that that uh that that work so perhaps some of these uh bloat issues which affect ethereum even 1:14:09more are things which will be done on that side and and we can just inherit um sorry what was your second question that was the second question thank you for the answer the first question was um [Music] 1:14:30oh i forgot shotting with this shotting is charting you answered because it was charting that you already responded and if we are going to continue inheriting which you responded positively that that's a that's huge for etc because we're going to continue inheriting research from other from the evm standard in general no 1:14:51yes yes yeah i'm not i would agree on that um yeah and in terms of sharding i mean i think some of that is just like you know they've just not got to the research yet or what have you but another part of it has been um the real success 1:15:09of roll-ups you know that roll-ups have become really really central and that you are seeing you know the successful l2s using roll-ups and and you're getting you're getting scalability that way without the sharding so 1:15:27you still will see talk about saying you know and when we have sharding as well you know what will be 64 shots and it'll be it'll be shards times roll ups you know and it's gonna be we'll have a hundred thousand times input throughput or what have you and it's like i think that's still all a little 1:15:46bit a little bit hopi of me that that the stuff that's really happened out of that sort of f2 road map has really like boiled down to pretty much while we did the beacon chain and then that's run for a year and it's worked and we've got you know we've got like 1:16:04loads of validators and then we're going to go live with that that that's kind of what's happened and that's kind of about all that's happened and nearly everything else has kind of either dropped away completely or is delayed and is still ongoing so yeah i'm kind of a little bit cynical that maybe sharding will never even happen 1:16:24ever but maybe it will in a hurry that's for sure i think hey bob can you hear me mike chuck can you hear me yes all right so uh donald 1:16:43finish his thought i'm sorry go ahead yeah bob i think that your view regarding the migration of a tu is very positive for ethereum classic and the fact that the ethereum classics will continue inherit that's that's amazing uh regarding my first comment was the 1:17:02fact that etc co-op remains say in an extreme case as the only funding source of ethereum classic and we migrate completely a hundred percent of nodes to turbo get because it's a much better technology and and partially solves bloating i think that's i'm very fine with that i think it's perfect 1:17:22what do you think about a world where edc only has turbo get do you think that's feasible or something that makes sense right could i also add to that question um is it do you see a future where etc is part of the official turbo gas client or would this be a fork that's 1:17:39maintained separately um so um so yeah just just to say so turbo geth was the was the older name eragon is the is the current one the interesting thing though um is that um so geth was kind of a prototype 1:17:59kind of an experiment really to see whether this stuff could could really work and the answer's been yes it can um eragon then is the is the go language version of that but but the group behind this are actually doing other 1:18:18clients as well i believe they're doing a rus client and a c plus client using the same kind of um same kind of architecture um and they're looking to do that in a in a in a modular kind of way um so i think it's from 1:18:38what i understand and haven't talked a little bit to some of the guys as well i think it would be feasible for a an etc consensus module to be written and maintained um that would be something that that you know we'd have to do ourselves um in 1:18:56terms of the maintenance and and so on of it but i i think it's something that could be you know kind of pretty official if you see what i mean um fork it it may be that you know we would have this module that we're maintaining as well and 1:19:16you're like well you're using eragon and the ecc module but but yeah i don't i don't think you're gonna have the same kind of like forking upstream downstream pain that that has been with with geth of of of you know them really and peter particularly 1:19:34just not wanting ecc support to go in there you know so that you could never get back to a a kind of a a fully upstream kind of version i think that's something that that would be different with with aragon and these other clients i think that i think that if we can add support for atc for aragon it could maybe 1:19:54even be a core ecip to migrate completely to that that's my opinion because because it's a better technology than the current nodes that we have thank you is torah yeah i mean the interesting thing the interesting thing to note there just to 1:20:11finish that up um is um that the changes that were made in turbo geth and aragon they're not protocol changes you know they're not consensus changes they they just built a better client um so it's quite interesting in that way that 1:20:31they've managed to achieve all that they've had but without without any consensus changes so um that's great because it means you know you don't have to say okay everything in ecc is going to use aragon and we're not going 1:20:50to do any other clients you know you don't have to force it in that way it's like a soft fork well not it's not even that it's just a better better code base you know like say here you go someone's i mean it's literally like somebody has built a new client and it's better you 1:21:10know so um so yeah you know i don't think it's anything that we need to to force but i i certainly think we need to keep our eyes on that and it would be a to my mind a sensible direction to see what can we can we get aragon etc and if so i think that 1:21:30would be a you know that's just going to be a better solution for for node operators thank you i'm going to study it thank you bob okay so i have two questions um the first question is um it's kind of i'm kind of thinking from 1:21:50a new investor's point of view like let's say somebody online sees you know uh etc to 1000 by the end of 2021 let's say right and they buy a bunch of this ethereum classic thinking oh it's going to pop it's going to pump do you think that looks bad on ethereum classic when it doesn't pump to 1:22:09that price that's my first question like why don't you guys rebrand to uh how 1:22:27do you say code is raw and then just go proof of stake all all around yeah rebrand man it'll make it way better old 1:22:43blood kind of stuff saying as well right uh i mean so rebranding is something that 1:23:02that people have raised um is as as an option um i i don't know if anyone here would like has got any thoughts along those lines that they'd like to share here well 1:23:21in in your uh recent quarterly report uh i believe you mentioned the current etc marketing narrative is something along the lines of egc is a perfectly suitable evm chain that's like f1 but without the bloat which we know will eventually not be true once it does become popular so do 1:23:40you think it's time maybe to change direction and focus more on uh the future of where etc can really bring value which is its unstoppability compared to other chains a 1:23:59rational thing to to do yes on you know on market positioning um i i would be very open to input that 1:24:22you mentioned there was something straight out of kevin's mouth it wasn't my mouth it's a it's an interesting problem to figure out what a narrative should be a decentralized 1:24:43community but it's good that we're able to have the conversation and if anyone's interested in contributing to the effort then please step forward and join us community if bob you have time uh 1:25:03if not we'll uh end on a financial note i have a little time if there's any more that you did for etc over the years you're 1:25:20great well is uh am i coming through yeah 1:25:39we can hear you kevin please go ahead i've been having the worst time with uh discord and trying to configure a new pair of headphones um me yeah 1:26:03and your video is loading at the moment yeah we got you we can see you now great ah 1:26:22shoot maybe it might not be worth it to um you're okay now was about uh rebranding and and sort of things like that um i believe it was uh well 1:26:42there was the uh code is raw which i'm not sure if that was the joke or if um the joke was the proof of stake um but there has been discussion like very very very early on with with igor and with etc 1:27:00dev um talking about potentially switching to a hybrid proof-of-work proof-of-stake um algorithm in the long-term future but it was never um was never pursued because i don't know maybe cody maybe 1:27:19know more than me but it seemed like they had more um infrastructure and you know infrastructure development that they needed to focus on to keep the project alive um but yes as far as rebranding that's that's a uh 1:27:40a monumental task it's it's doable it's a hundred percent doable but it's um it would take a lot of man hours and a lot of resources and maybe it works maybe it doesn't work maybe 1:27:59we're gonna maybe we would be seen as you know um bitcoin xt or you know bitcoin classic or something like that whereas right now we're we are the legacy ethereum um like that's just a matter of fact we're the legacy 1:28:19ethereum chain um but when people start to think that you know ethereum plastic is a fork because they haven't been educated on on what well one what a fork is one um another one what really 1:28:37happened back then and why did it happen like that um they just think or or they just think that this group of people is uh just a staunch um you know protest against ethereum and that they 1:28:54are our sworn enemies till death and that's just not the case yeah but i was trying to get back to to that one fellow's question question is trying to get this thing going as fast as possible he 1:29:13was asking what was he asking the rebranding um 1:29:30it's like kevin says rebranding costs a lot of money costs a lot of effort and if you want to rebrand the the timing of it is very important so what 1:29:48i mean is that you need to have a program to bring out like if you are like the state of edc now is wanting to to attract uh dep developers and let's say you have done that and then you have you know in a program that you 1:30:07want to uh attract investors and you have a full ecosystem then you on that point you can um decide like and and raise that question but like now uh we're we're like in untreaded waters uh still figuring out things out that's not the the 1:30:28the exact moment you want to rebrand in my opinion um but again it does also come down to the you know the risk 1:30:44reward you know ratio um is it worth it to devote sheesh i don't know maybe a year's worth of of uh resources and efforts that could be um you know better placed in a different area 1:31:03of of the project than to just you know rebrand because we've seen projects we brand take pivx for example or no uh dash let's take dash for example dash used to be called um uh dark 1:31:23coin or dark uh something something to do with the dark web and then they rebranded to but they were branded maybe five or six times 1:31:44and each time they were rebranded until they got to dash um they just didn't they would they weren't successful um it wasn't until they got to dash that they had uh people actually join in and then um what's 1:32:04her name they they put that amanda person as the face of sort of the uh dash um updates and stuff like that so that attracted a lot more dudes i'm guessing and 1:32:24yeah that that's something that really needs to be heavily considered um probably need to do an analysis on it whether or not it is um or 1:32:40whether or not it is um well would affect the community how it would affect the dapps how it would affect um developers that are developing dapps right now and um 1:33:02yeah that would take a lot of consideration ethereum classic needs to change its name at all i think it's what really needs to happen is education and getting back to the roots and realizing the the actual sort 1:33:20of unique thing that theron classic has to offer that the vast majority of people are just not aware of and it's really just an education thing about what is the reality of it at 1:33:39this moment i don't think uh rebranding is necessary uh we don't we just need some graphic packs like video packs photo packs just to have some templates that anyone can use and go from there but 1:33:59the main thing in my opinion should be for the next year is uh making making the website look better and keep it updated very close to launching a new version actually 1:34:18and uh those are interested there is a preview available uh in the website dev channel uh and yeah we're we're basically just finishing off content at this point including a uh an introduction to etc that covers the whole uh code is law the genesis the dow 1:34:37and the whole point of decentralization so hopefully more of a kind of guided introduction as opposed to what we have right now on the website i want to say uh first uh um that bob mentioned 1:34:55uh in the notes uh that he has to go um and also donald so maybe we can so uh yeah thank you bob for joining us uh it's been a real uh honor to have us uh 1:35:13to join us on the community call and uh yeah we wish you you and your family a really nice holiday so uh thanks again been fun yeah thank you well nice to everyone happy 1:35:31holidays i had some technical difficulties and uh joined a little bit later but uh yeah i'll still be around for the i don't know next 30 however long 1:35:52uh however many uh questions you guys have i'll be here to answer yeah we can still uh continue this um if anyone else is interested i'll also be around for a while so let's let's keep going so 1:36:13to adapt developers right now what are your main concerns with ethereum classic what are your main um you with ethereum classic um 1:36:33yeah those are like the the two questions i want to ask um current app developer or any um anybody working on it that uh could the tooling be improved um i 1:36:53know we i've seen some uh posts about relying on metamask um yeah just anything on the point of metamask i i think that ethereum classic it would be nice if there was a fork of metamask because uh consensus 1:37:14has like a weird licensing thing they have a lot on it right yeah they made it so if if you have more than 10 000 users metamask has the right to charge you to use metamask or consensus has the right which is not very open source-y so having a fallback to metamask would be 1:37:32a good thing um and it'd be good to have it before we need it speaking on on like have you tried using um you know uh 1:37:48the poa networks um their their fork of metamask or like uh saturn that works saturn wallet or um things like that or those not um not even in the ballpark they're just not as 1:38:06developed or not as efficient as these metamask tools would be may still be viable but i'm not sure whether they're being maintained or updated um basically this uh any fork of metamask before about 20 uh 1:38:26last year august last year is now no longer receiving updates so it would need to be maintained separately okay so yeah uh the nifty wallet by poa they are still um updating their fork with metamask as 1:38:46far as saturn i am not sure i still see saturn in the game store i mean in the play store but i don't see you know periodic updates um but if i was you i would uh check out the 1:39:03the nifty wallet nifty is what uh typically i use with uh with regards to an extension on chrome it's just the same as as metamask and you 1:39:23a little bit more options but metamask obviously is branching out they're doing mobile they're doing a lot of other interesting things with web three but yeah nifty isn't too far behind and i think probably that might be a good solution 1:39:41for what um what you're looking for but if not um um it's just nuts they just don't like us who don't like us nifty no 1:40:00no no consensus oh sure yeah i don't think they do um i think yeah looking at the nifty wallet uh repository it's maintaining the open source license and it's still receiving updates so uh in my mind it would be far better to recommend nifty wallet over metamask in future 1:40:19for newbies entering the system i can update on saturn wallet it's no longer usable for ethereum it still is usable for ethereum classic but it's not receiving uh any 1:40:38updates it's already gone by since the last since they dropped uh sort of etc it's 1:40:58uh quite a few on their 1:41:15own thing and uh not even considering uh collaboration or even open source you know development styles um or even open source in general i mean the whole point of open source is to share you 1:41:33know your project and share your code let everybody see what you're doing and then let them you know have at it and if they design something better than voila you have something better but yeah i've been uh this 1:41:53has been an ongoing issue with the start of classic mask and the classic mask wasn't up to par and then we had the saturn people who were um at the time developing the first uh iteration of saturn who couldn't uh do so because of uh so many tooling issues 1:42:12but yeah i mean uh more reliable end points via rivet um it might be worth making a pull request to nifty so that they can support 1:42:32their own classic just as a drop down instead of having to manually configure it that would be already a very useful experience are they do already not sure what endpoint they're using um 1:42:53i know they are 100 percent using ethereum classic uh as a typical drop-down menu like uh with any of their other uh networks like the poa bridge or the you 1:43:09know just regular ethereum etc 1:43:16does that still work let 1:43:31me double check on that rivet and i'm not sure if it's completely overhauled and 1:43:53changed the they have a json response from that end point it seems so okay so yeah yeah yeah um that yeah that reminds me that yes uh it's 1:44:13still going to be uh forward slash ctc um yeah because all they're doing is maintaining the actual service uh 1:44:29the co-op still has the uh uh domain or whether the links and all that um so yeah yeah it's it's still gonna it's still gonna work from the easier easter cluster website perfect we should definitely be recommending nifty over metamask then because 1:44:49it's less set up for users as well it's easier to use it's uh to me it seems more clean ledger 1:45:07or any other hardware wallet okay cool it's worth checking out i just checked uh on the version uh on saturn wallet and uh it says 2.1.2 and uh it seems like metamask is over uh 10.8 1:45:25uh already just uh give you another gosh oh man who oh my gosh saturn has always been a thorn in my side um i'm 1:45:45not sure what is is happening with them i know there's a group of people if you guys are ever interested go on to um but 1:46:07they have a full group uh for that and it's all uh you can uh actually cash in your your uh investment um because they had an investment program and uh 1:46:26people were wondering uh how am i supposed to get my uh well first of all how am i supposed to get my saturn back and why would i want to get my saturn back if there is no saturn but they made it possible for you to do so uh let me see here i always forget the name 1:46:43of this app it says okay to 1:47:21you on that because there's so much uh conversation and so much alleged development happening on um on that end of the spectrum as far as them saying um we're so close we're getting ready to launch and a we're 1:47:41getting ready to launch uh sort of a saturn 2.0 2.0 which they were supposed to do in january and they got my hopes up i'm sure they got other people's hopes up um and then they just vanished um and then the the 1:48:00reasons were oh the developers weren't communicating with um with me who was um when i say me i i mean uh i think it was uh ratos or it might have been a few other people or brattos or sam that was sam samuratos 1:48:20yeah uh he was their uh community manager or their uh the face of saturn so allegedly there were only two developers working on saturn and the way he explained it was they either got burnt out and 1:48:39they just couldn't do it anymore even though they had a tremendous incentive to do so and they also had a you know partnership with okx they had glad 1:49:00they were going to see their funds again one month two months three months and that just got offended um so it was kind of uh it was a shock to see that they were gone um and to see that their uh websites had all 1:49:18been changed to african netflix style sites like you would go on there and it would be like a nigerian uh netflix sort of site and it would all be you know like movies you've never heard of and then you would go to their forum and it 1:49:37would be something completely different and it was almost like like a hack like did they get hacked like this doesn't make any sense but no uh they they set it up that way and it was purposeful wanted 1:49:56to remain anonymous and i mean that is you know that is a possibility but once you get to the level where you're trying to manage a lot of people's money and you become a money transfer business it's 1:50:14going to be a little hard to remain anonymous a few people including myself joined that chat channel and it was uh being 1:50:33discussed what do we do how do we move forward and one person uh her name was carol or his name was carol i don't know um they decided all right let's start a uh there's no reason why we can't start the saturn where 1:50:51they left off and they gained a lot more uh volunteers and they gave more a lot more they gained a lot more signing into the uh to the channel um 1:51:13and they said they were gonna launch saturn 2.0 which was supposed to include uh liquidity pools it's supposed to be the sushi swap but for their classic like even better than sushi swap but 1:51:32it just never came to fruition because you know like i said they all uh the developers apparently were talking to uh sam and nothing ever came to fruition and uh it's it's the unfortunate reality i mean i 1:51:52don't know why uh you would promise or even uh create such an expectation where you think to where you make other people think that you're going to deliver this amazing uh 1:52:10piece of software which i wrote a blog post about and uh dove deep into and it was going to be a uh than sushi because it allowed other non-erc20 1:52:29tokens to join and there would be also you know the full plethora features for uh those 90 rc20s to join and you know start a liquidity pool start farming start uh 1:52:50doing all these different cool things um but yeah alas it never it never happened uh they they they quit the very shady way um absolutely no communication um yeah 1:53:09it was uh yeah i i don't know if i would if i personally would would trust him again but maybe there's always you know second chances to be given uh you know maybe have to keep keep them at our arms length uh 1:53:28so to speak but um yeah supposedly there's they're making a comeback and it's they literally said at the beginning of last week uh we're only a week away so launching on etc i'm 1:53:49going to take that with a grade of salt because of their pattern history and their behavioral history uh because i don't know who who carol is uh 1:54:03she's can continue oh yes 1:54:20uh so yeah the ring leader uh her name is their name is carol um but i'm trying to find the uh the name of the it's a popular it's a very popular uh sort 1:54:38of chat interface where you know companies will use that instead of just like key base key base yes key based okay sorry i was gonna ask so you're talking about saturn network is the one saying about the next the next week or a few weeks uh the saturn 1:54:57be the second group the group that decided uh let's just do this on our own i'm in that key base i know you're talking about okay are you on that key base i'm i'm on the key base i'm not really on the team i chime in every now and then i've talked to what's 1:55:16the guy's name oh crypto geek yeah oh carol carter okay yeah yeah i've actually uh tried to be a part of the project because uh you know i also invested with them i really believed in what they um order what to do 1:55:37and uh i'd like to see that either come to fruition or uh 1:55:58give me my money back for mike you give me my utc back but said we're in the last phase uh we need more people to join um our dow and uh 1:56:19yeah that was the very last thing that uh our very last update that i remember uh after uh logging out of uh or not logging on for just closing down the app progress 1:56:36i'm not sure there's nothing to track their progress there's no github there's no repository there's no nothing so it's kind of difficult to see what actually is happening i can chime in uh here so on the key base there is actually on the 1:56:56pinned node you can download a binary in make an install and you can transact and i haven't done it myself so i'm not aware of what the result is but i think uh 1:57:15it is really cool uh what they are doing um yeah because the idea will be that uh everybody who wants to interact with the dex uh will have to install a client and this client will have wizard and this wizard 1:57:32will have an end point so that means that um if you can manage to make the user growth that means that there will be uh immense uh amount of uh notes and not so really 1:57:50really um decentralized in the core of the meaning yeah i thought that was a better way of structuring it uh whereas the first you know whereas the saturn the original saturn didn't have that they uh sort of wanted to 1:58:09do everything sort of out of pocket um but yeah that that i liked very much and i do agree with you i think that that team has done i'll call them a team now because they've it's sort of been together for months now they've done some really good work 1:58:28in decentralizing and already decentralized um you know uh exchange uh i'm actually looking forward to hopefully uh seeing seeing that uh one image that i have printed 1:58:46out with their that saturn put out uh come to fruition where they had you know liquidity pools and basically everything sushi spa passed una swap has i mean you just swap spin around forever too um it wasn't until like fairly not fairly recently but recently 1:59:05until they actually switched over and started uh doing all these other um nice ui features uh sushi swab actually you know took the to take the breath out of them i'm 1:59:26gonna bounce out uh it's been a pleasure and thank you for coming i just wanted to mention that we will be doing this call every week on a tuesday uh the times might be tweaked slightly but we're gonna try and do this every week for perpetuity now uh just to get the ball rolling uh and continue the discussion so thanks for everyone that came 1:59:46and uh we'll see you next week yeah i just got here too is there a title to this uh meeting calls 2:00:16repo um maybe we'll get some better branding later but uh i know it works devs and devs and stuff devs and the teams can start shilling and what have some amas or is this something 2:00:33else okay okay well it started off with with no real goal it was just like open discussion and it was suggested to try and get bob on and then it became a q a today so i mean this format is great and a lot of people came so anyone that has any ideas to how this thing 2:00:52evolves um yeah let's do it i just want to uh quick say that uh we created uh the community called rule so if you uh are interested in some to be paying for events like polls etc 2:01:10then you just ask the moderator team you get the the role and let's uh just ask away um okay guys i'll see you next week thanks for 2:01:30coming bye

Q&A with Bob Summerwill, ETC Coop

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