Neo Classic

0:04Istora MandiriHello, and welcome to Ethereum Classic Community Call number 53. Today is Friday, May 29th, 2026. ETC Community Calls is a open voice chat discussion about Ethereum Classic, and everyone's welcome. The call will be published on YouTube, so we kindly ask that discussion stays focused on ideas rather than individuals. Let's keep it classy. You can find past episodes, transcripts, subscribe to the calendar, and more at cc.theoremclassic.org. Before the call today, for about an hour, we were in the green room playing with Veritas' poker DAP, which, we successfully deposited chips, played some rounds of poker, and withdrew from the app in a decentralized format using ETC network. So that was a quite cool experience. veritas, would you like to… Have a word about what we just did, and what your project's about? 1:07IAVI think you'll better describe it. 1:10Istora MandiriOkay, well, Veritas has been in the Discord and sharing this, this poker app. And it's a kind of combination of a chat room. Where you use your wallet to sign in to the app, and it uses… your Web3 address as identity validation, and then from there, you can Talk. Chat messages. There's a server running with… WebSockets, so it's a nice and smooth experience, and you can then start playing poker with people. And there's a… a shared… Secret Generation. Ceremony, to ensure that it's cryptographically random, so no one's cheating on the poker. And… Yeah, it worked. It was great. There were some minor things to polish in terms of user experience, but… That's kind of the point of doing the testing. So, I think from now on, it'd be great if we could have people that are building apps or wanting to test apps with real users to join the green room in future community calls, so we can Collaborate together, play with each other's stuff, and improve everything. So, thanks to Veritas for stepping forward to volunteer. this… this app, and I… I recommend everyone check it out. And you can find him in the Discord, and more information at the InArgentumVeritas.app. So, thanks for that. In today's agenda, there's a few things we wanted to discuss, we're gonna cover… ideas around a revamp for the Ethereum Classic website, which has currently been under… it needs a lick of paint, basically, and we're thinking about how we can modernize it. Every few years, this is an effort that It's probably worth doing, and it keeps things fresh. I wanted to bring up the topic of potentially having fallback discussion forums. So, adding a matrix channel in addition to the two Discord channels that exist. We have Diego on the call with us this week, so hopefully we can talk about the EIPs for, potentially, the next hard fork. And also, we have Luna on the call. So this would be a good opportunity to talk about the types of EIPs that we think are appropriate in terms of maintaining This balance of… Moving slowly and not breaking things, but also remaining relevant. And eventually, thinking about whether it's possible to ossify certain elements of the protocol, and which parts Everyone can agree to upgrade and which parts Maybe require a bit more debate. We're also going to potentially talk about a new mechanism in ECIP 1120 about How we can implement a base fee Refund for minors. in a… A way that solves a previously pointed out problem with uncles. So, this would be using a storage mechanism on-chain. So maybe we can talk about that in depth with Diego as well, later on. Before we jump in, I just wanted to give the opportunity for anyone, if they want to, to say hello. No pressure, but if you're on the call. Please do say hello if you feel like it. 4:56IAVHello, everyone. 4:59LunarHello, guys. How's it going? 5:03Diego L.L.Hey, how are you? 5:06Istora MandiriHey guys. 5:06Diego L.L.That's how we do it here. 5:10Istora MandiriYeah, we're all good, we're all good. It's been quite an eventful week, but… All in a positive direction, I think. And, yeah, I'm very optimistic about what's going to be happening in the next few months. I was hoping that maybe, Wego, who reached out to me earlier, would join this call. But he may be… he's in a European time zone, so it might be a bit difficult, so maybe… That might be more likely to happen next week, and… sorry, not next week, but in two weeks' time. So, one thing to note, that the next call Will be on the… It'll be on the 12th of Next month? 12th of June, and the time of that will be different. It will be at 1500 hours UTC, so this is a more European-friendly time zone. We usually do it 0200 hours, so if you're in Europe, and you're hearing this. Hopefully this time is a bit more suitable. And due to travel, We'll be doing it this time, instead of… the normal 0200 hours. So, maybe that's when, WeGo will join us, and… We can still talk about the topic at hand, and the thing that Wigo wanted to discuss on the call was about a… reworking of the Ethereum Classic website, which I think is one of the first topics we could get into. But before we do that, are there any topics that people wanted to share or bring to the table? As this is an open forum discussion. Or shall we just continue? Okay, cool. So, before… before, like, the recommendations that I think I have been thinking about we can improve on the website. Basically, I think that we need a… A bit more of a minimal, and modernized, and sort of… Less Options, landing page. But also having all the content available just kind of tucked away in a kind of Apple advanced settings side kind of thing, so that for new people that are just, like, visiting the site for the first time, they're not overwhelmed by all the different drop-downs and navigations. So I think that's really the main point. That I want to start from for this new version of the website. Do people have any impressions of the existing Ethereumclassic.org website? Or suggestions that they think might… Help. in this, this rewrite, this rewrite of the website. What are your first impressions, and how can we improve things? 7:58LunarJust looking at the website, one thing that I did really enjoy was, the articles, particularly, when I started reading. it's like the big article, the big, sort of, article on, sort of, why Ethereum Classic, and going over, like, the history of how the chain, sort of came into being, and… You know what I'm talking about, the big sort of introductory article? 8:21Istora MandiriYeah, the Y classic section. 8:24LunarYeah, yeah, I think so. I think so. It's like, it's like the main, I guess the main… the main, sort of, big reading piece to that. So, that's… that's good. That should be, like, easily accessible. And also the other articles, too, explaining the, the philosophy. 8:41Istora MandiriYeah, I do agree that… I think… It's important for people to understand why ETC exists, primarily. And… That it does actually have Like, real value. And to understand that value, you kind of have to get, like, some sort of esoteric concepts that most people Are probably not familiar with. And the question is, like, how do you… how do you get that information into people's minds as efficiently as possible? And for some people, yeah, reading these articles. Definitely does the job, it's thorough. And there are some key points at the top. But I'm thinking that it might be nice as well to include some… maybe some videos for people that prefer to consume content that way. As a more, like, digestible… Short form and attention. grabbing… Intro. So that was one of the ideas I had. So maybe each of these articles could have… either an AI-generated or more high-quality production. Sort of summary. Of the article, but also keep the article. 9:54LunarNo, yeah, don't, just, just, just keep, just keep it, just keep the article, like, don't, don't, we don't need, like, AI slop on top of it, like, they're, they're good. 10:04Istora MandiriFair enough. Okay, no AI. is… is how it's written right now. I mean, it was written before AI was a thing, so… it could just be kept as it is. But some of these articles are really quite long, and I'm not sure if… 10:23Lunarmodernize the website, just make sure there's, like, there's, like, a nice button so you can see, like, you know, the articles and the videos. Let's, like, make that a clickable button. 10:34IAVWhat about connecting the users, researchers, investors, miners, developers, contributors? We could connect these tabs, I think, into more… Common one into more… 10:50Istora MandiriYes? 10:50IAVYou know what I mean? To have it not so split over, so users don't have to… Go through all of this. 11:04Istora MandiriYeah. 11:04IAVC. Maybe less. Of each component, described, but… but… You know, it's too large at first place… at first sight. I think. 11:19Istora MandiriYeah, yeah, I think that's the main thing, it's, like, overwhelming, like, where do you go first? 11:24IAVThat's what I wanted to say, yeah. 11:27Istora MandiriYeah. 11:29LunarCan I ask, what's sort of, like, the main redesign you're doing with the, with the website, like, what's the… what's the theme? Or what's the… I don't know, just, like, what's… what's the… what's the reasoning? 11:43Istora MandiriThe main reason is, I think, Keeping things… well… For one, the technology stack that it's built on right now is kind of showing its wear, and it's built on a technology that's no longer really maintained. It's called Gatsby, and this, at the time it was built, was, like, the best option. But now there's much better things, and… switching to Astro gives us this opportunity to make other improvements. So we get better Search engine optimization, we get better… Load times, we get, better build times, and there's just, like… there's a few technical benefits to switching to a modern stack. So while we're doing that, we feel like. We should take the opportunity to also consider the design and the narrative and the communication side. So, this is an opportunity to rebuild things from scratch, and take the elements that worked from the current thing. and… like, reorganize, Streamline and just make it so that people get what they need. without… this… What is currently a heavily informational-focused thing? Which isn't a bad thing, necessarily, and I don't think we should remove any information. We just need to be more intentional about how we guide people to the information that they care about, I guess. And yeah, there's also this… Question about how we decide what content goes on the website, and Currently, and… Basically, since inception. The decision-making has been relatively, like, Everyone agrees, there's no real… Like, disagreement about what should go on there, because we were basically aligned completely about… the… The, the point of the website. And there was no real, like, I guess, philosophical disagreement. But I'm thinking that maybe… It would be nice to somehow add a kind of… almost, like, multiple opinions baked in. So, having, like, a wiki style, as opposed to just an authoritative style, would give Multiple different viewpoints, the opportunity to be showcased on this website. If that makes sense. And that way, it's, like, the website itself is decentralized. 14:31LunarYeah, yeah, that, that makes sense. Like, there's no… there's no, like, official website, so it's just like, you know, this is… This is my call. 14:44Istora MandiriYep. 14:45LunarThis is, like, the… new version of the website we tend to use. What's fine. 14:51Istora MandiriYeah, it's unfortunate that the word official is quite… I mean, on CoinMarketCap, it's called the official website, on many other places, because That's just the terminology they're familiar with. Most blockchain projects have official things, like the official Ethereum Foundation website is a company. But in lieu of any actual official stuff, then this is… the community website is the closest thing to it. And… I think in order to Keep it. neutral and community-focused. It should be… Built in a way that allows differing opinions to be published. And that's already the case through the, Through the blog system, like, there's tons of different opinions in the articles, but… really, I wanted to make it easy… easier for people to contribute to it without having to go through some kind of rigorous vetting process, if you like. Such that when articles are published, it's made clear that it's not official. Because, cause to some extent, the… Like, if we look at the recent blog posts, talking about Olympia, It might suggest that… Like, there's an officialness to it, and that's really not what the website is supposed to be about. It should just be, like, neutral information. 16:30LunarYeah, I mean, I… I agree. 16:34Istora MandiriYeah. And in terms of AI, I think the one place it might Play a part is the translations. And… If this website does become updated more frequently. then having an automatic translation step, I think. Would allow the content to be accessible by more people. Because… Most languages are just not going to be translated unless they're automatic. But I do… Basically agree that… like, I'm not against the use of AI In helping writing, but when it's just completely replacing stuff. You tend to lose a lot of the accuracy that comes from the… The detailed attention needed. 17:26LunarYeah, I feel like, I mean, AI, it's obviously amazing for so many things, but it always, like, gives you, like, the conventional thing, or it's, like, it's easily tricked by, you know, whatever it reads on the internet. Or… it always just sort of gives you the mainstream viewpoint. And it's very confident about it, and… Obviously, it's, like, great for some stuff, but, But I think that's, like, the main… the main sort of… the main sort of issue with it when it comes to writing. Or just other things, too. 17:56Istora MandiriYeah, and the problem is when… Like, sometimes people don't even read the output. In comments they make. And they don't really, yeah, give it the attention that's needed. I'm also thinking that it might… it might be nice to do, like, a design competition, so instead of just having, like, one design. Give people the opportunity to come up with multiple different competing ones, and have, like, a… Some kind of community-focused activity, where people that are into graphics and that kind of stuff are able to present Ideas, and we can work together to refine stuff in that way. And then the community as a whole could vote on what they think is the right direction. 18:49LunarThat sounds good. I don't know how many people are interested, though, in graphics or website design, but… I don't know, there's probably a few. 18:59Istora MandiriYeah, in any case, I think that… It should be open to the community to help steer the direction, basically. So, as we have Diego on the call, shall we jump into the… the topic of EIPs. And the… We basically kind of covered this before on a previous call on ETC Community Call number 49. And… now that Lunar is on the call, who… In previous calls, like, We discussed about which kind of EIPs, would be… Suitable or acceptable. And I think you mentioned previously things like, Like, adding an additional crypto-native or crypto-primitive to provide additional functionality is less concerning than changing the mechanics of the protocol. And I agree with that. And I thought it might be interesting to step through the proposed changes. bringing ETC up to date, or modernizing it in a package of EIPs that could be presented as the next upgrade for ETC. 20:31Diego L.L.Yeah, awesome. So I've been reviewing the… I mean, the differences from the current Ethereum Classics consensus, and what's going on in Ethereum. Right now. And, I mean, I cover the changes, from Cancun, that was activated in March 2024, Prague that was activated in May 2025, And also, well, Osaka that was activated in December, last December 2025, too. So, well, they have a, like, a lot of changes. I will say the majority of them will be oriented to things that came with, proof of work, proof of stake. Which will not be something that, I mean, we want to adopt, at least blindly. So, they made some changes. That were mostly because of, well, new… use cases that, proof of stakes open for them, but that we don't need to cover. At least, probably not in this Upcoming hard fork, given that it has been, like, quite a long time since our last upgrade. So, I tried to come up with a list that is small enough, but that will allow you to improve or modernize our, consensus to kind of catch up with, the new versions of Solidity and all that. So, I picked, like, 8 EIPs that I think are suitable for an upcoming hard fork, and I think there should not be that contentious. So… I mean, I could read through all of them. Basically, the first one will be… EIP 1153, which is adding the transient storage opcodes. both of them are T-Load and T-Store. In a nutshell, these two, opcodes will allow to create transient, variables through the execution of a smart contract. That was something that the Solidity guys were asking for a really long time, so yeah, that was activated, I think it was in Cancun. Also some other… interesting opcode was the M copy, so this opcode will allow you to… take a… A part of your memory and copy it into your stack. So that's also an interesting one. There is another one… 23:31Istora MandiriDude. I could jump in now. So these two EIPs are basically… Allowing certain optimizations within the execution of contracts, right? Yes. And this… this would allow… It's… it's… I guess one is the optimization itself, but also the compatibility with mainnet contracts that might utilize these opcodes. So, like, DeFi, advanced DeFi stuff in the future that we would like people to copy to ETC. Supporting this would allow that to happen, is that correct? 24:07Diego L.L.Yes, exactly. Yes, that's the use case that we will be opening with these two. So, the first one was 1153, the second one, the MCopy one, is the 5656. The next one that I have in my list is 6780, which is a change in the… the self-destruct instruction. So, from… from the… since the execution… the activation of this new EAP, or ECIP, So self-destruct will only be allowed to be executed within the scope of the same transaction, so you will only be able to destruct a contract that you just created in the. 24:53Istora MandiriInteresting. 24:53Diego L.L.section. So, that's important for… changes in the future, related to, stateless and all that. So… so one of the problems that, blockchains are facing, Ethereum Classic is not the exception, is the… the growth of the state. So, one of the ideas there, so basically. We have been growing at a pace of, 10 gigabytes a month. ballpark. If we are considering a full archive node. So, a stateless will allow us to shrink the growth of that, state. So… For planning for the future, this… This opcode is really important. 25:46Istora MandiriRight, and it actually increases the security of the network as a whole, because it means that people can operate their own node with lower hardware requirements. 25:57Diego L.L.Yes, absolutely. And also, I mean, in the real, real estateless one, it will be even better, because you will be able to validate your Block without the need of having the whole chain. So it's even more important than that. So that's the real end goal of being stateless as stateless. So that's really huge. 26:20Istora MandiriIn theory, that would mean, like, a very thin client, even, like, a browser. Would be able to fully validate. Yes. Wow, that's huge. 26:29Diego L.L.Yes, that's a message. 26:31Istora MandiriBenefit. Luna, do you have any… do you have any thoughts? 26:35LunarSo, how would this, so, I mean, if you're saying, like, in the theoretical case. Like, it seems like you're getting, you're getting stuff for free if you're saying, you know, you know, a browser could validate this, a state just, just like this. Like, so… so how is this diff… would… how would this be different from the, from the incentives around proof of stake, then? If you're saying you can get, like, state validation for free, because normally. well, I guess I have to think about this, but normally, the thing that makes it valuable is you have to put in the work to mine it. it can't just be, like, some agreement between, like, between validator nodes or whatever to… to include next block. It can't just be, like, you know, three people agree to, to make the next block like this, so it'll be like this. This is just, like, some, some, like, theoretical thing. I'm… I'm in favor of, Of, of, I guess, these new opcodes in general. bomb. 27:40Diego L.L.Cool, yeah, basically… The idea of, in the future, the idea of having, like, these self-contained blocks will be that along with the state route that you will be calculating. Two, you will have all the proof needed to get there. And that's… that's the end goal, so the blocks will be a bit larger, but will give you, like, a way more and more security, self-contained. So, so… 28:13Istora MandiriThe difference would be… 28:15LunarI think, I think you guys, when you. 28:18Istora MandiriCan I… 28:18LunarLike, the security from ETC comes from… comes from it being reliable, from, like, being reliable, like, not changing. Like, the world has to adapt to ETC. We don't have to adapt to the world. That's the frame, that's the frame of mind you guys should have. The security of ETC comes from… comes from it not being adaptable. Everyone has to adapt to it, everyone can trust it. Like, you can trust… can you trust Ethereum to be the same, like, 10 years from now? Like, no. Can you trust BTC to be the same? Yeah. Can you trust ETC to be the same, or similar enough? So this does… 28:51Istora Mandirithis change. 28:51LunarThat's the question. 28:52Istora Mandiriis not something that changes ETC fundamentally. What it does is allows Clients, like, users, to have more trust in what they're seeing, without having to, like, delegate that trust to whichever RPC provider that they're expecting. Like, if they have this data, they can cryptographically guarantee that the state is correct. So, without having to, like, process every single block and validate it themselves, they can then be sure In a stateless system, that what they're seeing is correct. So they get, like, this massive benefit in terms of security. And it means they don't have to process every block to get there, if I'm understanding that correct, Diego. 29:36Diego L.L.Yes, yes, I think, yeah, that's exactly the point. 29:40Istora MandiriYep, so… 29:41LunarI'm gonna touch. 29:42Istora Mandirilike, a massive benefit. 29:44LunarThat's fine, that's fine, I'll read into it. I'm just saying, like, the frame of mind you should have is. You know, the, like… the less hard forks we do, the more secure it is. Like, it's like Bitcoin, right? Like, there's zero hard forks. So, that's… yeah, that's just sort of… like… Broadly speaking. I mean, this all looks fine, like, I'm not… I'm not gonna throw a fuss about what I think. It's just… Like, the value comes from it never changing. Like, that's… the value of this comes from it never changing. You can trust it long-term. 30:24IAVCan I ask a question? Yes. 30:26Diego L.L.True. 30:27IAVHow… how much, lower the minimal, Requirements are for, running your personal node with the… improvements. 30:43Diego L.L.Well, so far, they… they will… they are not changing, so they are… stay the same. What I… what I was describing is the… I mean, the… the plan for the future. So, in the future, probably you will be able to validate a single block with your own phone. That's the idea. But that's the end goal. 31:06IAVOkay, this sounds good. I wanted to have my own node for the Poker application. 31:12Diego L.L.But… 31:13IAVWe actually need, like, 32GB of RAM, and I resign. 31:18Diego L.L.Right. 31:20Istora MandiriSo you could get the same level of, security guarantees. On a phone that currently requires, like, a fairly beefy server. Running a long time. Which is… 31:32Diego L.L.Yes. 31:33LunarNo, no, this doesn't make sense, this doesn't make sense. Like, to perform the… if you just say, like, the blockchain is, you know, a bunch of computers, you know, agreeing on something. Without actually doing… without actually doing anything, sort of difficult on the way there, then it's just like… then it… then it just becomes, like, a sort of social consensus. 32:01Istora MandiriWe're not talking about… it's not removing the need for mining, like, you're still putting in the work, the proof of work is still the consensus mechanism. 32:08Diego L.L.Oh, yes. 32:09Istora MandiriHow do you, as a client, as a user of ETC, how do you guarantee that the state is as It is. Like, you're using this poker app, right? And it could be that IAV is just faking everything. It could be a fake blockchain, you don't know. The RPC provider could be lying to you. But with this change, it means that you can validate on your client side extremely efficiently that no one's cheating, basically. 32:37LunarSo it shouldn't change… Sure, sure, that's. 32:38Istora MandiriIt's… 32:39Lunarbut… 32:39Istora MandiriIt doesn't question things in the way that you'll… yeah. 32:42LunarThat's fine, but the question is, does this change assume that there will be later changes, later hard forks, that improve upon it? Later on. 32:55Istora MandiriNo. I mean, this EIP on its own is self-contained, so it. 33:02LunarThat's this functionality. 33:03Istora Mandiripolicy. It doesn't have… 33:04LunarBut can the same logic be used to extend it later on? Like, that's the, that's the sort of question. So, I mean, I'm fine with all this, I'm not, like, I'm not gonna throw a fuss, but I'm saying that the more… the sort of philosophy you should have in mind is, the more times you hard fork it, the more it damages the security of the network. The more hard forks you add, the more it proves that, like, ETC can be hard forked. It's not as solid as something like BTC. And so that actually erodes the security. Like, the reason why BTC is so valuable is you can never change it. You can either agree to what Satoshi wrote and run it on your own, or you can make some other changes, but then you sort of lose the legitimacy with, like, BCH or BSV or something like that. And so it's like, I realize there is some need for, like, for, you know. there's, like, this trade-off between… like, there is some need in the early stages to, you know, adapt, make changes to it, or whatever, but in the state that it is now, like, it's… it works, it works, everything's good, it just needs… it just needs people to basically realize, like, how valuable this technology is. And so… It's just like, the more hard forks you do, the more it actually damages the network. Because… because it means the network can be hard for. So that's… I mean, I'm fine… I'm fine with all these changes. I'm finding strange. 34:32Istora MandiriIt is a… It's like a… It's a non-technical argument that has validity, that the political implications of being able to do a hard fork making it, in the future, easier to manipulate the protocol. And I get that. That being said, as long as, like, the hard forks that do happen, R… purely… Beneficial, and not messing with the rules of the game, and not undermining the principles. at least in the, like… I still see ETC as being in the very early stages. And it's still in this kind of, like… you could… you could maybe call it into its, adolescent phase? After 10 years. And it's still got some growing to do. 35:25LunarSo, McIntyre had the opinion. McIntyre had the opinion that it was done, that ETC was basically done. it works as it is now, and now we just wait for the rest of the world to realize it. And I think this is correct. I think this is correct. You know, I wasn't here when McIntyre was around. But, but I think this is correct. So… 35:48Istora MandiriDiego, do you think there's any parts of… the… ETC protocol, like, could it be considered finished now? 35:59Diego L.L.Probably not. I mean, yeah, it's… it's really difficult to think Let's Finnish. I mean, if we will have a state with 386 processors. we will not be being able to have this conversation right now. I mean, the Turing complete machines were invented, like, in the early… 50s, probably, and we have modern computers nowadays, based on the same principles, so I think… 36:39Lunarwould you consider the BTC network to be complete? Look, I mean, I… Let me say, all of the changes you're proposing here, I agree with all the changes you're proposing here, and I think, in general, like. In general, I'll also. 36:55Diego L.L.That agrees. 36:56LunarI agree with the changes, but we can't keep doing this. The point is, like, we can't keep hard forking forever, because that actually damages the security. Every hard fork is a little chip. 37:06Diego L.L.Yes, What I will agree is that, I could use the same calculator that my parents used at school. But I cannot use the same computer that they use when they grow in. So, I think that's the thing. I mean, Bitcoin… 37:25LunarWhy is BTC the number one… why is BTC, despite being so shitty, despite being so shitty in every way, like, who even uses UTXOs or whatever, why is it the number one most valued? 37:36Diego L.L.Yeah, no, I think people are… I mean, they still use calculator. I have my own calculator. I have the same calculator I use at university, and I keep using it. 37:47Lunarcorrect analogy. It's, it's, it's gold, right? Like… Yeah, yeah, I mean… The old calculator is worthless, but BTC, you know, it's an old calculator or whatever, but it's still… it's the most valuable, so you're not… 38:00IAVBTC is also being updated. It's not like it's not changing. It's being updated every week, I think. Look at the GitHub, they are being updated. 38:14LunarOnly, only the stuff surrounding it, only the stuff surrounding it, soft forks and… 38:18IAVI'm not sure about that. I just see the changes on GitHub on the page. I didn't. 38:24LunarThe core protocol hasn't changed since Satoshi wrote it. 38:28IAVOkay, okay. But there was some bugs across the way, too, in their network. I know they were fixed very quickly, but… 38:41LunarYeah, yeah, but it never, it never rose, it never rose to, I think, being a hard fork. I'll have, I'll have to look into it, but I, I think the core, the core protocol was never, was never changed. 38:50IAVThe changes… the changes, do need to have hard fork. 38:58LunarNo, no, I don't think so. I think there were some changes with the client implementations. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not an expert, but I think it was, I think that's… that's what it was. 39:09Diego L.L.I, I think that, it's… it's good to… to have a… the idea of behaving like Bitcoin in certain cases, but I think the use case that Bitcoin solves is a different use case that this EVM change solves. 39:28LunarThis is BTC plus smart contracts. This is BTC plus smart contracts. 39:33Diego L.L.Yes, and we are talking about the smart contracts part. We are not talking about the BTC similar part of Ethereum Classic. So, on the BTC part of Ethereum Classic, I think we all agree it's a reserve of value and all that, but we are talking now about the smart contract part, which doesn't fit the same rules. Ctc. 40:00IAVYeah. 40:01Istora MandiriThat's a really good point. And yeah, like, the consensus mechanism and the… all the fundamentals, the foundation, that doesn't change. But if there's… Like, in this complicated world of… Turing-complete contracts that have vulnerabilities and things that literally need to be fixed. Because otherwise the network goes down. Like, previously, this gas token thing, that was a hard fork that happened in ETC. that was basically a bug because of the smart contract system, and that… allowed us to not have the network be completely bloated and unusable. So, the… the precedent that has been set in the past in ETC is that certain things are definitely unchangeable. The economics are unchangeable. But when it comes to, like, tweaking functionality in the smart contract operating system, as long as we're not… Like, breaking old contracts? And… maintaining that… Code is law mantra. as far as, like, the hard forks in the past have led us to believe, like, these kind of upgrades are, like, within the ethos of the project, I think. 41:27LunarYeah, I mean, I'm, I'm fine, I'm fine with, like, sort of… you know, this upgrade, or any particular upgrade, and smart contracts are, you know, smart contracts are more complicated than what BDC has. And so, like, you know, needs to be allowed. But… but yeah, just… just be careful, because… because every hard fork erodes the security of it. Every time you do a hard fork, it says it can be hard forked. Either for… typically, it's just for minor reasons, like, for very small reasons. But, but it always opens up, like, you know. like a… you know, it opens up the can of worms, or Pandora's box, like, a little bit further. And so… 42:09Diego L.L.Thank you. 42:10Istora MandiriSo, in the early days of ETC, there was the difficulty bomb, which basically… the philosophy was, we must hard fork, we need to hard fork every X number of years, and that was removed, so there is some precedent into that, like, eventual ossification play. And, like, at the end of the day, miners are the people that get to decide which version of Ethereum Classic exists, and if they. 42:35LunarNo, no, no, no. We decide, every, every individual. 42:38Istora Mandiri50. 42:38Lunarthe solids. 42:39Istora MandiriSure, but, like, ultimately, it's up to the miners in terms of what they're putting their hash rate towards. Like, that's the… that's the ultimate veto power in the network. 42:48LunarNo, no, it's not… it comes down to, like, the beliefs of every one of us, right? If all the miners decided to switch to BTC, and, like, the hash rate drops, like, 99%, and there's, like, 10 guys that want to keep running it, it would still keep running. Like… It's not… there's no… there's no one party that, that controls the… that can have… that has, like, monopoly over it. Like, it's up to, like, you know, the hearts and minds of each of us. 43:24Istora MandiriOkay, I should say, like, the… it's the hash rate, really, that matters at the end of the day, and… Yes, like, we can… If there are hard forks proposed that do not… follow what this project is about, then they don't happen, because… It's a complicated thing that's not exactly formalized, but ultimately the hash rate is what decides, like, which is the longest chain, and that's the closest thing to the objective measurement that we have of… of what… Ethereum Classic is. Which is the longest chain. 44:04Diego L.L.Yeah, and that's an important point, and it, goes, within, research I've been working, with. That's… It's actually not the longest chain. It's the chain that has the most total difficulty, and it's its important difference, and that's where the… the hash rate, it's… it matters. Because you can… you can build a really, really long chain with, like, really small hash rate. But, if you present, a shorter one with, more, terminal… total terminal difficulty. This one would be the winning chain. So, that's where it's important, what you said. I mean, it's hash rate, indeed, what mandates. 44:58Istora MandiriRight, yeah, and I stand corrected. It would be the, I guess, heaviest chain? 45:03Diego L.L.Yeah. heaviest Chinese is better, yeah. 45:10LunarWait, so can you, can you sort of, like… can you run that through again? So the heaviest chain, the chain with the most hash power is what exactly? Talking about the… yeah. 45:25Diego L.L.So, every… so every block, you could say that, will accumulate a certain amount of difficulty. So, if you build, like, a really short chain with a lot of difficulty, into those logs. And you can pair it with a really long one, but with, lower… Hash rate put into each of the blocks. For the Ethereum and Ethereum Classic rules, you will have to pick The… the one with more hashing power on it. Not the longest one. So that's… those are the rules, or, like, the four choice rules in… in Ethereum on Ethereum Classic. 46:15LunarRight, right, right. 46:20Diego L.L.So, well, we can… I think we can, continue, with a list of… EAPs. So, after those. Opco, so there's another opco that is really important. It's, this, CL… CLZ. Opcode is for counting leading zeros, so that's also some… something that was, requested for. the Solidity and Viper guys, so that came from the language, so that directly affects the EVM. and the compilation, that's, EIP… 7939. Also… well, those are for the opcodes, then it goes to precompiles, which are, like, important for new use cases. The first one will be for Enabling news, your knowledge, proofs, which is, I'm talking about, 2537, which will enable the BLF 12 381 curve. So that's a car that is heavily used for zero-knowledge operations. And also, 7951, which will enable another elliptic… elliptic curve, which is, 256R1. So this one is, the one being used by bus keys nowadays in our phones, so it's, enabling that will enable, like, a lot of new use cases by using, like, your biometrics to. I will say you could even sign transactions using your pass keys on your phone and all that, so that's also something that will enable, like, new use cases for… for the future. Those are for the pre-compile ones. So there are a few other things that were more about, like, security. So, like, it's setting some boundaries around the usage of the… the modular exponential operations, within the EDM. So, there are, a cost increase for the Modex. alt code. And, yeah, also setting an upper limit. So those two upper limits, In the… in the execution of the MoveX. So those two are the 7823 and the 7883. And I think those are… all the opco… all the EIPs that I think would make sense for… for ETC to… I mean, to be part of an upcoming hard fork. There are some others that I think… Of course, we should omit, because, I mean, most of them came from using the beacon chain and things like that. And also, there are some others that I think we can defer for further discussion when we I don't know. think it's more suitable, like, in the same sense, like, 1559. So there are some others that will change the, like, add new transaction types, like 7702, Like, I think it's a really good one, but we need further discussion on how. 50:00LunarLet's defer $15.59. This, I mean, I'm in, I'm in favor. Of all of this. I will say, we should have self-confidence, we don't need to, we don't need to copy Ethereum. Like, we… just because Ethereum. 50:14Diego L.L.Yes. 50:14LunarWe don't need to do it. ETH, Ethereum ETH. So we should… we don't need to copy them, they're gonna, like… maybe you guys don't believe me, but they're going off a cliff, like, they're going off a steep cliff, and we just need to wait. We just need to wait and be patient. 50:31Diego L.L.Yeah, but in the same sense, I think, those changes will be positive for the network and for the users. 1559, allowed users to be able to gouge. the, the load. 50:47LunarLet's defer… let's defer the 1559 conversation, like, let's defer it, you know, indefinitely. Okay. 50:54Diego L.L.Okay. Yeah, I'm… 50:58Istora MandiriI support… I support deferring that. I just hope that we can… like, the problem that… Arises now is how we move forward with Upgrades. Like… How do we reach consensus? How do we get everyone on board? And, like… Practically, It seems like the ECIP process is basically in limbo. And I'm not sure how things are gonna move forward with that, with the… Current situation. So, like… Are we just in deadlock now? 51:37LunarWhat do you mean? 51:38Istora MandiriAs in, like, the ECIP maintainers are basically split In terms of what the next hard fork should be. And one side wants Olympia, Another side wants, A less controversial set of upgrades. And another one? 51:55Lunarside, and my side wants zero, zero upgrades. Three signs. Three sides. 52:01Diego L.L.Pretty safe. 52:03LunarWell, you'll… 52:04Istora MandiriThat is the default. 52:05IAVAwesome. 52:06Istora MandiriZero upgrades is the default option, but… I think, with time, like, I hope… I… I… I think we can… We need to reach consensus at some point. About how to move forward, and I think the benefits of these upgrades, like, once we really understand what they're gonna bring, it's gonna be apparent that They are… Especially in these early days, gonna be useful to have. And they're not messing with the fundamentals. Like, for example, this privacy stuff. It could be in the future that there are protocols out there where if you don't have privacy, then no one wants to use your chain. 52:48LunarThat's not how it's gonna work. It's like, they'll have to come to us if they want to use, like, a different privacy protocol thing or whatever, they can. But I'm in favor, I'm in favor of all these, because they're, like, because they're small, because they're small changes. And it's sort of… it's sort of in line with all the other stuff. I mean, in my heart and soul, in my heart and soul, like, you know, this is an abomination, it should never be changed, but it's fine, it's fine, whatever. 53:18Istora MandiriWhen you say, like, People can come to us. Like, if there's a future where, like, you have mass surveillance, and the only way to avoid going to a gulag, for example, is to have privacy, then who the hell's gonna come to us? 53:35LunarSo… I'm not talking about, like, some hypothetical futures, I'm talking about, like, why exactly is BTC the number one currency and not, for example, Monero or something? 53:48Istora MandiriBecause it was the first. 53:50LunarYeah, because it was the first. That's the only reason. 53:53Istora MandiriWe're not the first. 53:54LunarWe are not the first, but we are trustworthy in the sense that we are completely, like. We are the most decentralized smart contracts platform out there, and you can trust us to never change. Basically, code is law, and you can trust us to… part of that, like, you can say code is law, it has two different interpretations. One is the programmers set the law. And they can do, you know, they're the new ruling class, which is like, you know, that's kind of the interpretation. But the more sort of strict interpretation is code is law, and you can trust the code to never change on you. That's why you can trust it more than many other things. 54:34Istora MandiriThis… this… 54:35Specheat the… 54:35LunarNope. 54:36Spechedecent. 54:37Istora Mandirithat this code is law thing has been… Kind of settled in the past, and when we say code is law, we're not talking about the… the client code. We're not talking about, like, the Go Ethereum, like. pull requests, they have to change, because packages need updating all the time. It's not that code that's law. The codex law is what's in the application layer, and as long as. 55:03LunarRight. 55:04Istora Mandirithe X. 55:05LunarBut if you're, if you're changing… If you're changing the protocol layer, if you're changing the protocol layer. In a way that affects, like, changes to the protocol layer can affect the DAP layer. And so… I agree. 55:19Istora MandiriAnd those kind of changes should not happen. 55:22LunarRight. 55:23Istora Mandirias long as you're maintaining the execution of contracts that already exist on-chain, like. which these upgrades will maintain. They're not breaking anything. They're just adding additional features. So, in that sense, code is law is maintained. 55:40LunarYeah, yeah, but the fact that you can change it at all, the fact that you can change it at all, like, the reason why… part of the reason why Bitcoin is so incredible is, you know, Satoshi just comes out of nowhere and says, hey, this is the protocol, you either run it, or you run a different version of it, in which case it's not Bitcoin. And EPC, because… or because smart contract chains in general, don't have anything like that, don't have a creation story like that. It's, it's, like, more difficult. But, but basically, ETC, ETC is the closest we have to something like that. So it's like… like, every hard fork means it can be hard forked more in the future, you know what I mean? 56:22Istora MandiriYes, yes. 56:22LunarLike… So that's, that's, that's the shape, that's the thing. 56:28Istora MandiriWe appreciate the point. But it's always gonna be a balance. And if ETC froze in time today, I don't think it would last another 10 years, probably. 56:40LunarNo, no, I disagree, I disagree, because all, like, if ETC froze in time right now, I think we just wait, and Ethereum collapses on its own, and the only thing left standing is basically ETC. Like, my thesis, my thesis for ETC is, man, once people stop believing in the ETH cult, they move to ETC, and we'll have our, like, rightful place as the number 2 chain. But, but that can happen if we're… if we're hard… like, if the Olympia hard fork went through, like, I don't think that would happen. Like, it… it can happen if we… if we go crazy with hard forks or whatever. But, but all these, all these small hard forks, like, I'm in favor of, you know, I don't wanna, I don't wanna be a pain in the ass, so, like, yeah, yeah, it's all fine. That's sort of… that's sort of my perspective, but . 57:32IAVWhy do we call it fork not update? 57:37LunarWell, because you're changing the, you're changing the rules. You're changing the rules, in a small way, but it's changing the rules. 57:45Diego L.L.Well, it's, it's an interesting… 57:47IAVOn the node, or is it minor side, or is it complete network change? Like, every… every user needs to adjust? 58:00Diego L.L.Yeah, I like to call it network upgrades. I think it's a better term for what we are doing now. That's my personal preference. 58:09Istora MandiriIt's a bit… hard fork has multiple connotations, so I use it purely out of just habit from a technical point of view, but yeah, I guess upgrade is a nicer way of putting it. That being said, like… It does feel like you're loading this terminology into upgrade. And you're giving it, like, a level of. 58:36SpechePositively. 58:37Istora Mandiriaround it, you know. 58:39Speche10 upgrade. 58:41Istora MandiriIt is just an upgrade, but at the same time… like. I prefer to use the technical term so that I don't bias the conversation, right? Like, if we say every… Olympia's an upgrade. Is it? Technically, it's… More accurate to say it's… it's a set of proposals that will fork the protocol. In a hard way. It's not a soft fork, it's a hard fork, so it's just a more accurate way of putting it. But we have this history of hard forks having this negative connotation. 59:13IAVYeah, but here we don't come with some, you know, stealing some… Mining fees, or whatever. 59:24Diego L.L.Yeah, I think that the term is, like, kind of retrospective, so it is a fork if there was no agreement. And it is an upgrade if we all went all happy, and we followed the same path. 59:39LunarBut you can't… this comes down to, like, social consensus, right? Like, if you're saying it's not a hard fork if we all just agree to hard fork, that's like a social consensus thing, and social con… like, if you're… If you're forming your community on a social consensus, those things tend to break down. Like, basically, the Bible is a story of how the social consensus breaks down and leads to, you know, the death of one of their great figures. And so it's like, you can't form a community on social consensus. It has to be on something stricter than that. 1:00:15Diego L.L.But not changing the BTC protocol, it's social consensus, too. 1:00:22LunarNo, it's not, it's… look, I mean, you know, it's a social consensus, everyone can choose to run it or not, but the… like, the Bitcoin, it's a somewhat more objective thing, because you're either running the Bitcoin protocol as designed by Satoshi, or you're running something different. Like, it's a… You know, it's either, you know, it's either X or Y, right? I mean, you… everyone… everyone has a choice, you know, do you… do you live… do you live in America, or do you live in Russia? You know, do you… do you live, do you run Bitcoin, or do you run… do you run a different, do you run BCH? Right, everyone has a choice, but, It's… it's… it's objective. Like, the, inside, within, within each, within each network, you know, it's objective. Does that sort of… 1:01:07Istora MandiriBitcoin did have this overflow bug early in Bitcoin, which did… You know, they fixed that with a social consensus override, so even Bitcoin was not perfect when it came out. 1:01:21LunarYeah, I think that was on the client side, but I could be… I could be wrong, though. I mean, it would… yeah, nothing… nothing's truly perfect, you know? 1:01:29IAVNo, no, no, it printed a lot of fresh coins. Yeah, there's a bank below. Millions, or whatever, it was a huge amount of Bitcoin minted. 1:01:41LunarI'll have to… I'll have to look into that, but yeah, nothing… nothing's perfect, you know, nothing, nothing's truly perfect. But yeah, the point. 1:01:50Istora MandiriYeah, I just… I just think it's difficult to… it, like… In… in theory, it's nice to have this, like, absolute black and white standard. But in practice, The world is not so… it's more messy than that. And applying the same thing to different Fundamentally different products. Can be done to some extent. but can't be easily applied to the whole stack, especially the more complicated elements that would benefit, with very little downside to implementing things like new hashing algorithms, and definitely things like quantum resistance, which I think you all agree Should be adopted. When, when that's required. 1:02:43LunarYeah, I mean, I agree. My… I would say, just like… just, like, leave it, you know, we've, like, ETC has had so many, so many hard forks in the past. Just… my sort of… my ideal, my ideal scenario would be something like… Oh, just, just leave it open, like… You know, just… maybe we'll do another hard fork, maybe we won't, but there's no need to rush it, like, we'll just… everything's fine as it is, you know, if, you know, if there's a quantum monster that actually comes. Comes by, you know, we'll… 1:03:16IAVWhat should we do if there's some dangerous situation, like quantum computers or something like that? 1:03:25LunarThen we'll fix it. Then we'll fix it. 1:03:28IAVThen we'll fix it, so then we'll do hard work, right? So then we'll do that. Why not… why not do good changes? 1:03:37LunarWell, I think the attitude is, like, in theory, we've done so many hard forks in the past, we can do another one. In practice, you know, we should never do a hard fork, something like that. That would be sort of my ideal. 1:03:49IAVYeah, in perfect… in perfect environment, and perfect state, yeah. It would need to… Do you know the college goes forward? We should go forward as well. 1:04:01LunarWhat was that? 1:04:03IAVI mean, technology goes forward. 1:04:06LunarBTC does not go forward. BTC does not go forward technologically. Okay? It's the most trusted because it never changes. That's part of the reason. Right, sure. 1:04:21Diego L.L.Yeah, but I think that… 1:04:23LunarI… 1:04:24Diego L.L.I think the quantum… the quantum, threat, it's real, and I think, in a sense, it's good, because it talks about how science has moved forward. And, well, when Bitcoin was invented, there was… I mean, the science for creating quantum computing was not there yet. 1:04:46LunarBut when you say move forward, you're… it's… it's… you're replacing one government for another. Instead of, you know, the government of validators on ETH, or the explicit government in nation states, it's the government of people who decide how to hard fork it. And luckily, luckily, you know, that's… you know, that's, that's not like a real… I mean, maybe ETH, EDC, you know, that's like a real debate, there's, like, a real government there that's… But it's, you know, you're replacing one set of social consensus for another. And so that's why… that's why it's so… that's why it's so important to sort of, to be careful with these things. Like, like, one hard fork leads to another, and pretty soon, like, your society collapses. Like… 1:05:32Diego L.L.Yeah, I agree that it's a huge power. I mean, and it, I mean, of course, we have to take it responsibly. 1:05:41Istora MandiriYeah, yeah. And I think the best way to protect the protocol in the long run is having Having a situation where, even if There are no good guys, then somehow it can still continue through the, like, written soul. Of something that's not based on just social consensus and the whims of whoever's Writing the code at any given time. Like, and that's why I mentioned the miners, because then… They can refer to what's in their best interest, and also that aligns with having a protocol that maintains neutrality, for example. And the things that founded this project to begin with are the things that carry it through still to this day. So, I think protecting those and making it explicit that those are the things that we're following, not just whoever's in control at any given point. Then it has this, like, massive longevity. Because it's not written. Every few years, based on some kind of, governance process. It's written Like, into the core soul of the project. Back when it first started, and that is, like, respecting protocol neutrality and all the other things we talked about, immutability, etc. CODIS law. So I think those ideas can anchor the project much stronger than Yeah, any, any kind of, like… attempt… like, if we, for example, just had the approach of never updating the protocol, And… Forgetting about the principles as the primary thing to maintain. then the project will not survive long-term, I think, because of quantum, because of these… 1:07:29LunarI disagree, I disagree, I disagree. 1:07:31Istora MandiriBut look, hear me out, hear me out. Are you saying that if, in the next 5 years, there's a quantum machine that can break all the wallets of ETC, and we don't… 1:07:39LunarOkay, in your magic boogeyman scenario, if Satan comes to Earth and maskers all of us, no, then… Then you're right, you're right. 1:07:48Istora MandiriI think it's… this is just a potential threat. There could be many others on the horizon that we're not even aware of. 1:07:53Lunaryou're, you're using, like, basically, like, magic. Like, this is… like, if… you know, this, this is sort of… like, you're hypothesizing some magical power that will be able to break your private keys unless you hard fork, and I'm like, okay, can we be more realistic? Like, can we… maybe one day we'll have to talk about that in earnest, but, like, let's. 1:08:17IAVI think we are close to that day. 1:08:22LunarI mean, my understanding is, you know, the quantum computers are still stuck on multiplication, like, many-digit multiplication. And so we, we still have a little bit, we still have a little bit of time to go. 1:08:38Istora MandiriSo you're saying it's not a threat at all, and we shouldn't plan for that? 1:08:41LunarNo. No, you shouldn' every… 1:08:44IAVYou have to broke private keys for address. But I doubt they would use it for such a dumb thing. 1:08:52Istora MandiriSure. But maybe in the future it becomes, like, commodity. Like, eventually quantum becomes extremely widespread, and therefore, like, if Ethereum plastic does not change at all. like, it's gonna be trivial for anyone to just, like, fake transactions, potentially. So, in any case, for longevity, there needs to be some mechanism to upgrade the protocol, to change the protocol, in order to deal with threats. And if Bitcoin doesn't change at all, then that's also gonna die. So… I agree. 1:09:25LunarEvery sort of empire ends, every… Every sort of, every empire ends, and… and sort of understanding understanding what we can do to make it, like, last longer is important, specifically to answer your quantum thing. My sort of… my direct approach would be something like. Okay, we've done hard forks in the past. Let's, you know, we have that option open. We have the option open to do a hard fork. In theory, we could. In practice, we never will. If it turns out that the quantum threat is, like, legitimate, and it's gonna happen, like, in, you know, a year from now, you know, there's gonna be quantum computers that can do it, then maybe, maybe we discuss, you know, quantum upgrade or whatever. 1:10:13Diego L.L.Yeah, that's a huge problem. Yeah, I mean, that's a huge problem, because what will be the signal that you will listen for making a hard fork like that one? Like, specifically in quantum, because the problem is that not when the quantum computer will become a commodity. The problem is that nowadays, we don't know which government already have those, and what they. 1:10:36LunarNo, that's LARP, that's LARP. No governments have quantum computers that can do, like. 1:10:42Diego L.L.Hopefully. 1:10:42Lunarcan do multiplication. It's not hopefully, that's a LARP, like, if you, if you read the, if you read the research on, like, they're stuck on prime factorization of, like, you know. Of relatively small numbers, still, with quantum complexity. 1:10:56Istora Mandirithe public information. 1:10:59LunarNo, you're hypothesizing God. Like, you're hypothesizing God or Satan. Like, that's what you're doing in this conversation. You're like, what if there's, like, a godly power that comes and kills us all? It's like… Okay, alright, like, let's have a real discussion, like, like, let's, What if there's, like, some secret technology the government has? 1:11:17IAVSo you would want to react when the thing is already… In the past. Well, when the computer does damage to the network, you can't react after that. The damage is already done. 1:11:32LunarYeah, but you're, you're supposing, like, oh, the government is secretly ahead of all of the quantities… 1:11:39IAVGovernment, it could be private entity, it could be group of some, you know, people… You never know. 1:11:47LunarWhat do I do? What do I do if God comes and, like, takes all my money? It's like, what, what, and, like, destroys… 1:11:54Istora MandiriThere's a sliding scale between, like, supernatural and something that's literally possible in the next 5 years. 1:12:02LunarOkay, okay, but what… you had to assume, like, the quantum is coming, that I won't be prepared, that we won't have any research to prepare for it, that it'll happen, like, in an instant by a government force. It's like there's a lot of hypotheses built into that. That's why I'm saying, can you make it more realistic? Because, like. It's the same thing with the AI people, it's like, they treat AI as a god. 1:12:33Istora MandiriI'm not seeing it as, like, a god, I'm seeing it as, like, there's documented cases in the past, and probably still now, of secret government projects and private projects that are not in public, and they are often ahead of what's available in the public. Like, that's documented. And… 1:12:51LunarYeah, yeah. 1:12:51Istora MandiriIt's also the case that there's a vested interest in cryptographic protocols being made vulnerable because it provides a massive advantage in information warfare. So we can only assume that there are secret labs that are attempting to solve this, not in public, and they're probably ahead of what's happening in public. 1:13:10Diego L.L.Yep. 1:13:11LunarAnd I think that… 1:13:12Diego L.L.The good… the good news is that we already have post-quantum algorithm and cryptography, so we could be protected, even in the worst case, when this supernatural machine appears. So we already have the tools to be protected. Even in that hypothetical case. So why we should not be… Adopting those. That's safe, that's dead. 1:13:36LunarBut it's always like, you know, the way Napoleon takes power in France is he says something like. He goes to the French Parliament, and he says, there's a fire, there's a great… this is like a story. But, like, he goes… I'm not sure if this is quite true, but he goes to the French Parliament, he says, there's a fire, you all need to evacuate, something like that. And by the time they've all evacuated the Parliament building, oh, his troops are all in there, and sorry, he owns the government now. And so it's like, you're hypothesizing oh, you know, there's this… there's this great fire that's coming to kill us, this quantum threat or whatever, and you just need to hard fork, you know, move your assets to this address, and you'll be fine, or whatever. We just need to do some quick changes, and then, you know, the… The, you know, government is taking. So it's like, that's… that's, that's always… that's always the sort of frame of mind. It's like, you know. 1:14:33Istora MandiriSo, I posted a link in the chat of the OpenSSH protocol, which is, like, extremely important and used everywhere for information systems, and they are now, like, warning people to upgrade their systems to implement these post-quantum outgoes. So, are they also just thinking about God? Or maybe they have, like, some insight into what might be a threat. 1:14:58LunarI'm… 1:14:59Istora MandiriAnd here's the thing, like, if… you could be right, and maybe there is no threat, but what if you're wrong? And how certain are you that you are 100%. 1:15:07LunarYou know, I've actually worked at a quantum laboratory. I've worked at the… when I was TAing. Actually, I didn't technically work on the quantum physics part, I worked on… 1:15:18Istora MandiriHave you published any papers? 1:15:20LunarOn quantum computing, no. On quantum… not on quantum computing, not on physics. But, I… look, I feel confident enough to look at the research. it doesn't seem like it's a year away, or 6 months away. I will, you know, if we're all worried about that, I will personally do the research for ETC. What do we need to be quantum secure? But my opinion on that right now is it's just like, it's pure hype, it's pure hype. It's like, these quantum computers, they still don't know how to factorize large numbers yet. Or, like, medium, very small, very small numbers, yeah, so it's like, we're still… A lot of it is just hype. So at least, like. 1:16:07Istora MandiriThere's someone in this call that did publish papers about quantum, specifically in blockchain networks. 1:16:15LunarOkay. I mean, that's… that's nice, that's nice. So, I guess, when would you say, when would you say that, that a quantum computer will be able to, Would we be able to… I'm not sure. Crack ECBSA or something like that? 1:16:33Diego L.L.Yeah, no, I don't know, we can go to Polymarket and make our bets, best bets there. Well… I don't know. 1:16:38LunarNo, let's not… let's not, let's not let them… like, what's… what's your opinion, like… 1:16:43Diego L.L.Probably, no, I… it's hard to say. I will say 6 years from now. 1:16:49LunarOkay, alright, so… 1:16:50Diego L.L.We can… we can listen, we can listen this… this record in 6 years and see what happened there. 1:16:56Lunar6 years. Like, that's… yeah, I mean, that's… that's fine, like, I sort of agree with that. It's not… It's not, it's not a rush, it's not a rush, it's… it's years, it's years ahead. 1:17:08Diego L.L.Oh, yeah, no, no, it's years, it's years, it's years. But, I mean, this conversation will take, like, years also. To agree upon, so it's important to start having those. 1:17:20Istora MandiriBut can you see there's a massive difference now between, like, this imaginary Sky thing that's not gonna happen, most likely, and something that is probably gonna happen in 6 years, and the fact that. If ETC doesn't change. Well, the point is not really about quantum, the point is about whether or not the protocol changes at all, and you're arguing it should never change. Just like Bitcoin. And if that's the case, then the project dies because of this kind of threat. 1:17:48LunarEverything, every, every empire, every empire dies eventually. I'm saying you should be very careful about how you change it. And… and exactly, like, what, You should be very careful of how you change it, and imagine that the quantum theoret isn't that real, and someone says, hey. I think they're trying to do this in Bitcoin. It's like, hey, there's a quantum threat, so let's freeze, let's freeze all the old coins. Did you see this, like, BIP, I don't know, BIP361 or something like that? 1:18:16Istora MandiriJameson Law. 1:18:18LunarYeah, something like that. Can you see how that's, like, a Napoleon… Napoleon fire situation? Maybe not, like, a real quantum threat situation? A situation like where you're trying to freeze old coins because of… because of some of the… Throughout the future. 1:18:33Istora MandiriIt's a really difficult. 1:18:34IAVWell, that's a very strange way of dealing with quantum threat. through freezing cold coins, I don't understand it. 1:18:43Istora MandiriSo, Diego, do you think that, in order for… this quantum transition to happen, it's going to require every address to do a migration step before before the attack happens, such that those old addresses are basically sweeped before they can be attacked. And that creates a big problem for a lot of blockchains, where a lot of the old addresses that have not moved are basically targets for this, potentially. 1:19:12Diego L.L.Yeah, it's a really hard question to answer. I think probably it's… I think probably there should be… Like, a block, where we will accept certain… Yeah, no, I don't know, I have to think further, how this could be solved in the future, no, I… Now, I don't think it will be something that the users will accept, that change. That's… that's a thing. So, there should be some other way to solve this… this thing in, you know, in a way that it's feasible for everyone in the chain, because, I mean, you cannot be forced to… to make nothing to… to be safe. So… that's… there should be some other mechanism. I'm not sure which one should be, but I don't think that that one will work. In an open blockchain, yeah. 1:20:14Istora MandiriThe Bitcoin… I'm not sure whether or not the Bitcoin freezing of funds thing is… 100% in earnest. It might just be that they're putting it out there as a, like, this is a possibility, right? This is one option, and it's probably not the best option. 1:20:32LunarYou know, the fact that it's, like, discussed, that it's not a joke, I think there's a lot of people that don't own that much, that would actually like to see it because, you know, they don't own that much, and it would be bullish for their coins if some of the older coins were frozen. Right? Like, more supplies locked from the big old whales. And it's sort of, like, it's a kind of coup, it would be a kind of coup on the Bitcoin blockchain. And I mean, stuff like that has happened in the past, right, with BCH and BSV. 1:21:08Istora MandiriI mean, the best case scenario is a good guy with a quantum machine sweeps all the coins and then manually KYCs everyone into their new quantum address or something, but… That's not gonna happen, so… 1:21:20LunarI'm just saying, often, often these sorts of nightmare scenarios, these sorts of nightmare scenarios, often, it's like Napoleon in the fire, like, hey, you know. 1:21:31Istora MandiriSure. 1:21:31LunarGod is coming, God is coming to kill us all. Quantum computing is coming to kill us all. And so you have to… you have to surrender everything to me. In order for… in order to survive, something like that. Yeah, and… 1:21:44Istora MandiriLet's… Okay. 1:21:45LunarIt's like… 1:21:45Istora MandiriLet's just entertain the possibility that it might be real. And in that case, what does Bitcoin do? 1:21:54LunarWhat does ETC do? Maybe that's an easier question. We have a history… 1:21:59Istora MandiriActually, I think it's easier in the Bitcoin case, because you've already said that, like, that's the gold standard of not changing, and if we can copy Bitcoin's response, then that might be a good approach, and because Bitcoin is less complicated. 1:22:12LunarI think in our case, I think in our case, I think in our case, it actually is easier, because we have a history of hard forks, and maybe for quantum, if it's legit, and we actually do research, and it's, like, very carefully, calmly understood, then we can actually implement that, quite, quite easily, and everyone would agree with it. Because the protocol has never changed, because they have never changed the protocol for even small improvements, it's actually painful. It's actually painful. 1:22:40Istora MandiriIt just… the project might die, right? 1:22:43LunarI don't know if it might die, but people need to carefully think about that. 1:22:47Istora MandiriThe options in Bitcoin are, like, either… Satoshi's coins get spent, and that crashes the price of Bitcoin massively, because it's a huge amount. Or, they freeze the funds. Somehow. And everyone kind of tries to migrate before a certain block, as far as I understand, unless there's some kind of other magic solution. 1:23:07LunarI think there might be a third option, I don't know, I think there might be a third option, but I haven't looked into it. But in our case, in our case, it seems to be quite easy. It would be, just like… Just like another one of these, but my point is, we shouldn't be relying on this. We should not be… like, my, you know, a hard fork ideology, it's like, in theory, we can do it. In practice, we should never do it, something like that. And just sort of leave it… leave it open-ended. But if you guys… if you guys want to do, you know, if you guys want to do these… these opcode updates or whatever, like, I'm fine with it. I don't… I just… I want you guys to understand the philosophy, why this is so valuable, why I'm so bullish on EPC. 1:23:48Diego L.L.Oh, and it's important, I think, to make that point, and to, I mean, make us realize how important it's to… to be conscious about the changes, and to have these conversations, and yeah, I highly appreciate your input on this. 1:24:05LunarOkay, thank you, thank you, and I appreciate, like, all the stuff you're doing, all the stuff you're doing on, On development side. So… 1:24:12Istora MandiriYeah, likewise. These conversations and these debates are what makes the protocol move forward, and I'm glad that we have different opinions, otherwise it would be, Pretty stale. 1:24:22LunarYeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's, as long as we, as long as we're nice to each other, kind to each other, then it's all easy. 1:24:30Diego L.L.I'm sorry guys, but I have to quit now. Yeah, no, we spoke. Okay. But yeah, please continue to move forward. I just wanted to say bye. Yeah, thank you for… 1:24:43IAVYeah. 1:24:44Diego L.L.Excuse me. 1:24:45Istora MandiriThank you, Diego, for joining. 1:24:47LunarThank you. 1:24:48Istora MandiriAnd, see you next time. I think now is actually a good time to wrap up. It's also, 90 minutes, so… Yep, For those left on the call, if there's anything else you wanted to add before we wrap up, please let me know, if there's any shout-outs you want to make. 1:25:07IAVmodels. We… we spoke a lot already about everything. 1:25:13Istora MandiriYeah, it was a good call. 1:25:14IAVSave something for the next week. 1:25:17Istora MandiriCool, sounds good. And in the meantime, if anyone's listening to this and wants to be involved in the website rebrand, and also any other Community-related activities, jump into the Discord. Or just contact me directly. And the next call, as I mentioned earlier, will be at a different time. It will be at 1300 hours. sorry, 1500 hours, UTC. on the… 12th of June. So… Tune in then for the next episode of Ethereum Classic Community Course. And until then, thank you everyone for joining the call. And see you next time. Take care, stay classy.

EIP	Discussion Notes
7823: Upper bounds for MODEXP inputs	Effectively pairs with 7883: adopting 7883 alone leaves the bounded branch under-priced, adopting 7823 alone keeps legacy pricing for unbounded inputs. Include as a pair?
7939: CLZ (count leading zeros) opcode	Low-complexity, no dependencies. Worth including?
7910: eth_config RPC method	Was green in call 49. Still in scope, or moved to a separate track?

EIP	Discussion Notes
1153: Transient storage opcodes (TLOAD / TSTORE)	Cancun. Occupies previously-invalid opcode slots, so existing contracts are unaffected. Now heavily used by modern Solidity (reentrancy guards, cheap per-tx scratch space). Keeps ETC at parity with post-Cancun tooling
5656: MCOPY opcode	Cancun. Another previously-invalid opcode slot. Solidity emits MCOPY for memory copy by default, so without it modern compiler output silently falls back to the old, more expensive sequence
6780: SELFDESTRUCT restricted to same transaction	Cancun. Operational follow-up to EIP-6049, which ETC already adopted in Spiral (ECIP-1109) and which signalled future behaviour changes. Live on Ethereum mainnet since March 2024 with no production incidents; balance transfer is preserved, only post-creation state-deletion is narrowed
2537: BLS12-381 precompiles	Prague. New precompiles at previously-empty addresses, so existing contracts are unaffected. Unlocks ZK and threshold-signature primitives on ETC
7883: MODEXP gas cost increase	Osaka. Repricing of underpriced math; hardens against cheap-CPU DoS at large inputs. Pair with 7823 (adopting either alone leaves a mispriced branch)
7951: secp256r1 (P-256) verification precompile	Osaka. New precompile at a previously-empty address. Enables WebAuthn / passkey signature verification on-chain, unlocking modern wallet UX without bespoke crypto

EIP	Discussion Notes
2935: Historical block hashes in state	Designed for stateless clients / beacon bridges. Defer until ETC has a stateless roadmap
7623: Calldata cost increase	Tied to EIP-1559 economics. Needs a native ETC cost model first
7702: Set EOA account code	Depends on EIP-1559 fields; replay / sponsorship surface still settling upstream
7825: Per-transaction gas limit cap (~16.7M)	Redundant at ETC’s current ~8M block gas limit
7935: Default gas limit to 60M	Advisory only; on ETC miners set the limit. Should stay out
7934: RLP block size limit at 10 MiB	Includes 2 MiB margin for beacon wrapping that doesn’t apply; revisit later
4844: Shard blob transactions	PoS / beacon-only

EIP	11??	1121
1153: Transient storage opcodes (TLOAD / TSTORE)	🟢	🟢
5656: MCOPY opcode	🟢	🟢
6780: SELFDESTRUCT only in same transaction	🟢	🟢
2537: Precompiles for BLS12-381 curve operations	🟢	🟢
7823: Set upper bounds for MODEXP inputs	🟢	🔴
7883: MODEXP gas cost increase	🟢	🟢
7939: CLZ opcode (count leading zeros)	🟢	🔴
7951: Precompile for secp256r1 (P256VERIFY)	🟢	🟢
7910: eth_config RPC method	🔴	🟢
7935: Default gas limit to 60M	🔴	🟢
2935: Historical block hashes in state	🔴	🟢
7623: Calldata cost increase	🔴	🟢
7825: Per-transaction gas limit cap (~16.7M)	🔴	🟢
7934: RLP block size limit at 10 MiB	🔴	🟢
7702: Set EOA account code	🔴	🟢

Neo Classic

Key Points Discussed

Green Room: InArgentumVeritas Poker Session

Preamble

Today’s Agenda

Introductions

Agenda

Neo Classic Website Rebrand

Enter The Matrix?

Next Hard Fork: EIPs Shortlist

Needs discussion

Green - Uncontentious

Deferred

Next Fork Competing Bundles

Coinbase Storage Mechanics for ECIP-1120

AI Summary

Green Room Poker Session and App-Testing Format

Website Rebrand: Stack, Structure, and Voice

EIP Shortlist Walkthrough with Diego

Ossification vs Maintenance Debate

Quantum Threat and Migration Mechanics

Action Items

Full Transcript