SHA3 Poll, Front-Running Solutions

0:03hello and welcome to ethereum classic community calls chat that happens on the ethereum classic discord server every tuesday usually at 1500 hours utc the content of these calls is decided by the etc community if you'd like to contribute you can join us on discord at ethereumclassic.org 0:22discord and you'll find us in the community course channel if you'd like to help spread the good word of classic make sure you comment on this video like it subscribe share and hit the notification bell to 0:38etc number 15 for the 1st of march 2022. 0:48today we have a pretty open agenda and we have a bit of a show and tell from various different community members and we would just like to invite people to uh have an open discussion so uh thanks for joining us once again there's just a couple of brief announcements first of all donald mcintyre 1:07had a really good presentation yesterday which uh i didn't attend in person but listen to on youtube and it's a zero to bitcoin overview of how the history of blockchain got us to where we are today including like a lot of 1:25stuff that i wasn't aware of like the the kind of pre-history stuff in terms of bitcoin and what led up to the creation of it so if you are new to the space or even a veteran and you know we'd like to know about the history of bitcoin and the precursor to it i highly recommend that presentation um it 1:44was really good so thanks all for doing that and you can find a link to that presentation in the show notes as well as ethereumclassic.org it's currently on the front page so you can check it out there thank you for that donald you're welcome and the second part of the course that is all about categorization 2:02and use cases and all the current events is on wednesday at 16 hours utc so that's tomorrow right tomorrow tomorrow and march 2nd wednesday perfect that should be uh one not to be missed and 2:20i'm assuming that it'll also be recorded and uploaded to the youtube and put on the thermoclassic website if anyone can't make it yeah perfect the uh shah 3 opinion poll on etc discord which i believe is a an 2:40initiative that brother is setting up that could be used for a number of things not just shar3 but as a general sort of straw polling system uh did you want to explain what that is brother okay so it's basically a closed channel where people 3:01will be able to vote the channel will use a bot a web hook where where i will send the information and [Music] basically what did i 3:17want to do so the way i see it is trying to inform people about this change of algorithm in a way that is not so complicated if you go on github and see the esip most people will just fail 3:37to read it or i don't know it's too complicated for them so what i'll try to do is have object objective i want to do the pros and the cons for 3:57this proposal and i will also want to make some complex uh questions because it's easy to say okay let's change the algorithm because 50 months may happen but uh this is not really really a question 4:17the the change for the algorithm means uh also assuring stability for uh for the chain for a long period of time it has many many benefits but also we should also take into consideration the actual state 4:37of edc and uh the core the current hashing algorithm on etc so we need to we need to inform people better so that they may express a 4:56better decision because there is no way you know the centralized network to aggregate communities and speaking 5:12on on their own language so uh this is not something that i will do this is something um where i'll ask for opinions unless for data i'll try to sort them out uh the poor 5:32will have links for further information and also i'm waiting on the updated proposal for for the check mining so it will also include links there for anyone who can want 5:50to go deeper so basically we need we need by the time after after moves to the proof of stake we need to to have a view a community view and if 6:10this pool can can offer that i think it it's a good asset for making a more informed a more informal should i say this decision awesome 6:27um what does that look like for users in the discord do they just go into the polling tracker channel and they see a bunch of questions so my idea is to to have a structure so it's not an ordinary pool like you have for 6:46voting right what is your age what do you like blah blah blah so the polo should be so the structure should be something like uh the informant the information 7:05about check mining and the information about etc and compare that the two of them and also have the hardware part talked about and see what 7:24are what are the benefits and what are the downsizes and i don't know just aggregate information there with links and maybe links to videos about previous discussions so what 7:42i'm trying to do is make a uniform uh a form of unified information so that people can can answer maybe three or four questions about what is the past what is the path forward 8:03interesting does that mean it's kind of a bit like a wiki page um in terms of having a fairly balanced summary of both sides and then asking people like which side of the fence do they fit in terms of each sort 8:21of small sub-topic yes yes something like that like a wiki page for for this problem basically for this debate because uh for my prof from my understanding uh it is going on for a long time and 8:41people are very passionate about it so i think we should explain it better and see what common grounds we have and express an opinion yeah that sounds good i think it 9:00could even be something that is managed on github as a means to maintain this document and also decide like corrections and stuff because it has a pretty good uh toolset for handling that kind of stuff for code that could also be used for just 9:20plain documentation so i think it's just a really good idea to have a a single source of all these different arguments and counter arguments and so that any person can because it must be difficult um having not been part of the conversation to suddenly join it and then you hear one side 9:38without hearing the other and it's a constant sort of back and forth right but if everything was in the same place then people could get a fairly good idea of the pros and the cons without having to read through a bunch of um posts and or listen to a bunch of podcasts yes 9:57it's it's very hard to follow for for an average user i also saw on on the new website that there is a mention there about the debate on shot3 which has like four lines so if 10:16we we if we manage to to extend it and have a proper a proper uh documentation and objective overview of this debate i think people will start realizing what 10:35is better and how how can they this information taking into effect and maybe act on it and express on it and because overall the 10:54community in its own way is pushing the the forward chain the and the chain forward so extending this to the website maybe right um could be beneficial yeah for sure and i think having something 11:15outside of the ecip process would be beneficial as well um partly because that process i guess like editing the proposal in line isn't really part of the process so it's difficult to see counter arguments to a given proposal just 11:34by looking at the proposal because you then have to go into the uh all the different issues that are created on that and read through the whole discussion and there's no single point where you can say okay bang bang bang these are the pros these are the cons so maybe it'll be i don't know what the best way to like actually implement this would be but 11:54something like a wiki or just a new repository that's dedicated to just a bunch of markdown files that have different debates in them right i mean did you have anything in mind specifically for that well the reason i was thinking about this 12:13is because some people come and go and come again and say hey hey we want sha 3 because this and this and this but this debate has been for a long time and people 12:30need to catch up with with the current status if they don't know the current status of this proposal and they they can't they don't have the time to inform to inform themselves it's just blah 12:49blah talk and nothing happens and people get angry and we all heard the last development call which is a bit messy so i'm trying to to avoid this and 13:07have a more clear argument when the time comes if the time comes um a format that works that i've seen work fairly well for this for presenting this kind of proposals would be to to have three sections one section 13:27just gives a description of what exactly is being proposed but without justification also just basically the technical thing and so this is completely neutral then there would be a section where one side presents their view motivation for being for against it and 13:47so on and then there's a section that's where the other side presents their view and um none of these should be extremely long in printed media we would say maybe once one small page maximum and 14:04um each each side should obviously have one editor who who combines those ideas so that you don't get 10 10 different essays merged in into either one cohered article article um and then he could indicate something that somebody can 14:23read with a relatively short time and get a get a picture of what's going on and what the positions are yes that's a good idea that that that that is something that i'm thinking also about the structure that it should have and 14:42i guess it would be good to have like a character limit on each section to sort of force each side to uh condense the argument yes and uh i was looking through some materials and uh basically we 14:59only have an article on a medium written by uh steve steven which which is good right and uh it's okay but it doesn't uh it doesn't uh um that 15:22had happened in the past year and i think we we should have something better than that and uh make it more agile objective and uh see and basically see what happens see what 15:39the people think yeah i think this is a really good uh approach and one that is pretty simple to set up do you have an idea for a name for this thing czech mining debate or 15:58uh opinion poll or check out my name you shot three chapters the brand and it's easier yeah that's fair i was thinking as a as a name for this new process which i think is outside ecip because that's far more formal and it's 16:16kind of like a pre-ecip community debating arena i was thinking something along the lines of articles of consensus something consensus consensus yes that may work too but uh i'm not sure if average 16:33our medium people encrypt or really understand how how the consensus consensus work in in etc or what it means so my idea is to make it as simple as possible and 16:53uh as informant as possible important which would be um to also have something at the end that tells people what they should do once they've heard this so if they need to vote in any way if they need to write to their 17:12representative to express their opinion do they have to do nothing and just wait till something is announced so that should also be clear otherwise you create a lot of confusion and people come come and try whatever comes to their minds classification 17:34like okay in what investors vote this uh miners about these uh supporters for this and but it's get it gets too complicated so we have we have to have some sort of unity about uh about 17:54uh two directions it's a big thing ethereum trying something like this with progpal i can't remember the tool they use but you know it it basically listed out the arguments and or discussions and you know attributed certain people to 18:11it and so on and so forth uh yeah i think the one issue with with voting in the classical sense is that it's very hard to to control the number to to make sure that the numbers are in any way representative i mean it's very easy to to game those things and what you can do 18:31though is is collect opinions and us and and go and group them group similar opinions into the into the same one and then then you could ever have ever list have a list of of opinions so maybe this would be a purely uh 18:49qualitative poll not a quite a quantitative one of course in the end we also need a quantitative one but um i'm not sure i'm not sure we have a mechanism for doing this yet uh well look let's just ask her and find your theory one that's a good example um i think hudson might have done that i i 19:09can't remember i can't remember where that was well the thing is uh we already have a channel where people can express opinion about about shattering we already have that and people 19:28can just go there and speak their mind their mind about the proposal what i'm trying here is to move from that opinion to an actual answer for a question or two questions or four questions so 19:48i think it validates uh it validates the understanding better and expressing the opinion sure what i mean is that again that there should be an editorial process so you so you don't go to a challenge and write your statements or fight 20:07with others but you write your opinion to the to the editors of the pro or contra sections and then they can incorporate this or maybe you you make a you make new section with sections where you just mix just include all the small statements that you receive if you don't want 20:26to work it into the into the the presentation that's that that each side makes and so that you basically avoid the dialogue the direct dialogue but you have people comment on this proposal as the that is presented already with the 20:45technical part the neutral part and then the the two sides and then you can basically uh basically have the reactions i i see this like the benefit of this thing is that it it kind of deduplicates all of the noise that is in chat channels and condenses it into just pure like 21:04very brief lines so yeah it's good that people have opinions and we want to incorporate all those opinions into an argument but it's just about navigating what the different uh points of view are in the space also there is another thing we 21:22had debates for a long time so what happens with the opinions that were expressed like two years ago right so you nobody will stay and start scrolling the chat and do all that stuff so 21:39we need a better tool to to make those people and just express it once right so you have that expression for years to come if sha three comes after two years or three years or one year i don't know right that 21:58opinion that vote that remains in the channel so it's it's simpler to to to get an overview to whilst 22:16whilst yes have a summary of of the arguments also potentially link those points to any other like supporting evidence or copy in like a full explanation of the argument with supporting evidence into the the document as opposed to just having 22:35a single line so that there's a full sort of uh robust explanation of that yes i agree the the document should be like like a white paper right so it has to contain uh 22:52both sides it has to contain some technical it has to contain some metrics it has to contain some current current facts about the mining industry so we need to put them together and make 23:11them easy to read and understand and new informations appear and also if cops if cop makes a makes 23:30move makes any move in any of the directions yeah i think this is a great idea um the only question then is what tools to use and i guess we should look into a bunch of different options and appraise what will work best for this i'm 23:49thinking of kind of like a combination of a sort of forum but also having a wiki built into it in some way and if github can do all that then github's great but it might not be the most accessible and there might be issues with like merging those documents so if there's other options out there that make a a better tool 24:09then uh yeah suggestions are open and welcome offers these tools and offers a lot of i 24:26don't know let's say quotes or spaces or alignments or kiss or stuff like that so i'll try to make a draft just for a test and maybe get an opinion on that though my 24:44my idea was to to use it uh to write it ourselves to write our this pool of ourselves we can also use a third party boot and invite it to the server and just put the questions in put some description and let people what but i think 25:04having control of it and [Music] the possibili the possibility to to add text and make it uh clear or links or stuff like that would be more beneficial just 25:21write it ourselves and make it the best the best we can when you say write it ourselves you mean program our own consensus building software like having 25:40the text yeah the full text the full paper that contains all the explanations and uh having people vote a b c d or something like that and that uh that 25:57should be the only taking i think something like uh like like a wiki could be you could be useful for collaborative editing otherwise i think a centralized solution would be great 26:17if we just have for each of each of those those sections you have an editor so lead so the editor also does the access control so that you don't get one side for example trying to to put bad things into the representation of the other side um and 26:34i'm not sure you would get a ton of editing activity anyway so it may not be necessary to to to develop great tools if in the end it will be maybe 10 people who who contribute significant amounts of text and maybe you get a few dozen or shorter 26:53opinions that get expressed and that you incorporate one way or another into the whole thing and there you already have it basically i i basically disagree with the adding opinions right 27:11so because we already have the checkout mining channel i disagree about adding opinions or personal feelings or i think we should just go about the facts you have the facts you need to be to have them objectively you need to have them 27:31verified as much as possible and the final text i think it should be reviewed by all parties involved or people who are close to this so to this subject and 27:52gen and then just have it have it in the channel yeah the opinion parts would be mainly to make the work of the editor a bit easier because you would expect that he would first um that the editor would would first discuss 28:08things with with people who were basically main representatives of the opinion of the respective side and come up with some with some texts that would then be the the the overview that's that the side side presents and then other people would chime in and and would i would add would 28:28add something some more things and uh some of these might be difficult to integrate i mean not if not difficult that they would present any fundamental problems but it's just a lot of work that every time somebody says oh yeah that's a good idea but then yeah we have to rephrase some some paragraphs and so on and uh so it may 28:47be easy easier if you can just um uh put them verbatim or or condense them a little bit if you see okay that's who people are basically it's just saying the same thing but with different words then you then then you're right and then you condense this into a into a single statement 29:05so that you would have the the nicely edited text plus individual points slightly separately that um that have not been integrated but that's a reader might also want to to consider so but this 29:24would simply be to to make the work of the editor easier so henry just posted a link to a thing called elo which is what ethereum mainnet foundation was using to decide about programmatic proof of work and if you jump into the community course 29:42channel you can see that link and it appears that this is the perfect solution for this kind of debate because it stacks up exactly the way that you're talking and i believe there's some kind of voting mechanism in there as well does that look like what you were thinking of bro i'm 30:00just watching nick now yeah i think this is uh something more advanced than what i had in mind i don't know how much we want to complicate complicate this process and if it's easy 30:18to use for for average users who are not uh so familiar with mining and uh ad queries arteries and what the how much they can do they 30:38can understand and uh i don't i don't know make a make an opinion about it i was thinking of something more simpler but more informant a simple uh simpler safety system of getting opinions but but then also inform inform 30:57the community about the changes i mean what i can see in this uh link is pretty well i mean for a technical conversation it kind of breaks things down into bite-sized chunks at least and whilst it's kind of impossible to oversimplify fully 31:17it uh it does a pretty good job of laying things out and stacking things up against each other and as a platform that already exists it seems like uh some low-hanging fruit so this might be something worth experimenting with also 31:37look over it and maybe see if from there we we find some some things that we like and maybe bring it here or decide if we should use it but i'm not sure if people are ready to just 31:57go on a platform that they don't know make an account and just express opinions there and i don't know sum them up from there i was looking for a more simpler approach i think them there are several things that we're talking 32:16here one is whether there should be good information and updated information for everybody to know exactly what is the situation and what is shot three what is the it is he has it the other thing is the process of debating no of arguing of 32:35um presenting an opinion and then somebody presents an opposing opinion and managing all that all that too then um you guys talked about the poll a poll is just to gorge or measure what is your opinion of the people not just no it's 90 supported or 32:55only 10 percent or stuff like that and then uh there's voting voting voting is is um a system by which you gather units and you measure how much was on one side how much was on the other and if it passes a threshold 33:12then a decision is made so i don't think that we're talking about voting here this is just to measure opinion and consensus rough consensus uh etc decisions are made by people by running a node or mining on on whichever chain they want 33:30or buying the token or developing on it that that's how people make decisions so uh i i would be very careful to keep this kind of tools to just information and measuring opinion and that's it um i think that to attach a ethereum 33:48classic wiki to if you're ethereumclassic.org would be amazing like in classic.org wiki and there you have all the explanatory neutral explanatory encyclopedia type encyclopedia type articles and one of them could be a shortly 34:06debate and you have a wiki page there with all the information yes i agree with you donald i don't want to make a voting system for this proposal i don't want to take it in direction of technical 34:26approach i don't want to make it about opinions and i just want a place where people can get access to valid information without all the noise and have a simple 34:44a simple opinion not about i think that's great um and i think that the format of a wiki will be good if we have volunteers to to add information and edit it i would love to have a wiki on ironclassic.org 35:05i posted a link bitcoin wiki there on the community call that's that i use that all the time there's a lot of people there adding information and explaining things um that could be used as a model if somebody wants to do it under 35:24the knowledge base individual articles about these topics that's maintained by a bunch of people and we come up with some basic format and as mentioned like a limit on the number of characters like a subsection called debates and 35:43cha three blah blah blah i think uh a sub channel for uh for chekaku may work where we can collect we can collect the previous good or 36:03rebuy reliable or and try to stack them together and for so that when you go through them you'd have a more um a more better 36:22understanding well i think okay given that the end result should be just a reasonably sized document that describes the the proposal and the two sides it's not so important really what's what kind 36:41of uh of mechanism you you use to present this so this could be ricky it could be some some sunsite like this uh or it could be also just a section on on the on the classic side i'm not sure what sort of kind of content management system you have there so i 37:01mean you could have an editor sent send you send you paper that you scan and put on the site right so it doesn't really matter how you implement this um and the discussion that is the the making of this of these these elements of these three elements uh 37:19this is a separate process and i think for this it will be perfectly fine to have one or maybe better uh multiple uh discord discord channels and then people can who want to contribute to one of the uh of those of those parts uh could discuss there 37:38with uh among each other and with the editor and the editor pick up those things and integrate this into the into the document or you could also do it on github or whatever it doesn't really matter again but just the deal that you have in a way where you can do it efficiently but then the end result can 37:56be slow so so you don't need seamless integration with the editing process yeah i agree i just need to make sure some some person an editor has to champion either side and ideally uh can come to some agreement on the neutral 38:13part of it as well the essie process right so not sure we're adding adding more more channels or more places to to debate 38:35it's just redundant at some point in my opinion yeah i agree i don't think it's necessarily about having a continued debate it's more about like faithfully summarizing the the sides of the debate and crystallizing into a document so i i'm 38:53trying to figure out where this voting element or poll element comes in parallel like what are people questioning here or responding to in my opinion it should be about informing right about the 39:12aspects of over moving to a sha-3 algorithm it should be stated very clear what are the pros and the cons it should be it should have some links about technical 39:31aspects and also it should be updated to the current state of the of the work that has been done in this regard and let people decide um 39:51what what are what what is their opinion because we don't have any any tool to measure we don't have anything that can say okay we have a community and what it wants to do right i can go on twitter and make a pull and 40:09see what people think because most of my followers are are within ethereum classic but in the same time for a proposal that has technical aspects we we don't present it at as we should so 40:30it's uh so it's a combination between informing marketing and getting a feedback okay and i guess the first step is just getting uh a piece together um that people can look at i would just comment that uh and 40:48i'm just gonna quote for the audio a uh something that i kind of agree with so the quote is we reject kings presidents and voting we believe in rough consensus and running code and that's david clarke who's an internet pioneer so whilst 41:05it's uh good to get a an idea of what the community is thinking it's kind of difficult to because of lack of civil resistance in most consensus building tools to use it in any sort of actual decision-making process that has authority and really even 41:24if the vast majority or even maybe not vast but if the majority of people are voting for something and that thing is bad we shouldn't necessarily just follow what the majority thinking i should say so really the ideas should be judged based on their merit as opposed to whether or not they're popular well 41:44i i agree with you the the voting system it's very messed up so i don't think it can be used really in the standardized application we also the show about the treasury and 42:02the voting system there so i don't think we should go in that place again anytime soon on the other hand look at the switzerland where for a lot of years the the people vote 42:21their laws directly so in other words they express an opinion about how the community should be run the difference with sweden though is one person gets one vote right there's civil resistance there's like 42:41online if everyone's anonymous one person gets a million votes and there's no way around that unfortunately yes that's a problem for the current state and on discord i don't think this should really be a 43:00problem because it's basically an opinion poll and i really think that if the questions are right and put in a in a way that makes 43:21sense do you think that uh that ethereum classic should move to sha-3 just because the mitigate 50 are not attacks right this can be one question 43:39to see if people are still afraid and prefer to move to an unknown place like moving to sha-3 because they are scared right so you have different different ways to to 43:57measure opinions and see what are what are the facts behind that decision what are you actually measuring right how do you know that it's actual real people as opposed to just one guy that's one problem and the other problem is 44:15that uh you don't know how many not only that but even if you're measuring that 99 percent are in favor of something and it's true it doesn't matter anyway that's rock consensus donald could you explain could you go a bit more into detail about what rough consensus 44:34is rock consensus is is um difficult to explain because it's an abstraction which is basically means the absence of it means the absence of kings presidents and all that that you mentioned it's a cypherpang cyberpunk concept which basically 44:52says that if you if you want something you just build it you code it yourself and and that's how things are going to be made and then if other people want to use it or participated in they just participate um it's their own personal individual choice so um 45:10in a country like sweden the analogy is so wrong because a blockchain is the opposite of a nation or a country blockchain is something that you participate in voluntarily because you like it so it's the absence of of central decision-making 45:28and the absence of a voting system where just because more people say that they like something it's forced on you because you cannot escape the place where you are the nation blockchain is something that is permissionless you can go in and you can go go out whenever you want and if you like 45:47uh a change you just adopt it that's that's the the the maximum extent of decision making it's your own individual adoption in case of ethereum classic if you want to buy the token etc because you like that network because of its design then you're 46:06participating in there and that is your way of participating no not because you voted or somebody forced you or you can build a dap that's another way of participating or you can code a client or participate in the ecip process or you can participate in the community 46:24in discord twitter etc um giving your opinions um or you can you can run a node or be a miner so that that's the way decisions are made because something is proposed people like it when it's not controversial and it goes very fast like when we do hard 46:43force which are very easy to do because we all agree that those upgrades have to be done or something may be proposed and everybody rejects it or half of the community rejects it which is for example not say if somebody proposes to change the monetary policy in that case uh if the people who propose it want to force 47:02it in and they have the right they can fork and split the chain and they go with their own algorithm and that's another thing that everybody has the right to do fork away uh so there's no centralized decision making it's all pushed to the individual level so and this and this conversation started 47:20oh yeah there should be better information about if you're in classic and now we're talking about voting you see how uh your our individual mental biases drives us to centralization you have to very be very careful with these things it's not trivial that we're talking here we wasted 50 minutes talking about we started 47:40talking about hey let's give information and better information updated information to people and now we're debating voting i mean uh please be careful of these things guys yes i agree with you understand the principles please understand the prince don't be naive don't say oh yeah in sweden doing like they do it like this please 48:00don't be so naive that we can measure for uh for determining the weight of overvote uh one thing would be for example um we could take votes from client operators and then they 48:19could gather the opinion of their user base and shape their vote accordingly this would be a very precise thing in the sense that um if a client operator is strongly opposed and would not adopt any such change uh then this would directly reflect 48:37in the in in the in a potential change split also so in that sense it would be a very relevant vote uh on the other hand of course it's a very it has a very coarse granularity this kind of uh kind of system and um one thing is the measure of opinion just to 48:56measure consensus and another thing is to vote both have to be banned from etc the only vote is the hash rate yeah you have hash rate and you have you you can measure hash rate that's that's a good one yes no hash rate is not a vote hash rate is not about running 49:20confusing the abstraction of a boat or boat which is a unit that you cumulate and and you and you see how many are on one side how many are on the other and if it passes a certain threshold then everybody's forced to adopt something so running a node or mining uh one chain or the 49:38other is not a vote it's just adoption it's just i like it i use it um and that's it it's not a vote a vote is is is is a totally different concept voting is a system of making a decision collectively and forcing all those that who who don't agree 49:57to adopt it and that's not rough consensus rough consensus and blockchains are absolutely voluntary and individual in the state of decision well in the same way that you can vote with your dollar you can vote with your cpu cycles you don't vote for your dollar with you with your dollar you buy it's a price separate 50:17separate the concept of satoshi nakamoto was wrong when he said one cpu one vote connecting the concept of voting with your personal actions is the most wrong thing that satoshi has ever done so eliminate the concept of voting in etc because 50:35that's a recipe to go to centralization again so so returning returning back to just a second returning back to the discussion of the pool i think we can make uh 50:56that that people or members in this court we can make only supporters to to express a vote because if they are supporters the the system right the poor system won't be so much abused it doesn't matter if it's abuse the poll is 51:13just a poll it's just to check how many of my friends have certain opinions that's it it's not that important just do a poll yeah everybody goes to vote and you choose to believe whether the poll it doesn't mean anything anyway in terms of decision making right it's actually spoken and that's where you're that's where you're 51:31connecting polling with voting you what you want to do is to measure the opinion so you can turn around and say you see we have to do this because the paul says so which is what they they did with the dow and the carbon vote why don't you use carbon vote for that no i i think here you are wrong i'm making 51:49the poll so that people get more information about the debate well that's fine that's perfect a poll is just for that but you you're i mean we've been again 58 minutes talking about this it's not that important it's not a vault we're not making a decision for you 52:09it's just informational you just put a wiki you put all the information there you update it and then you put a polling thing where people go and and use twitter and other callings and just measure or or the one that um some a person did here that they gathered all the opinions of the community uh that was very good on an excel 52:28spreadsheet that those kinds of tools that's the most you can do i would i would argue what i'm criticizing is that you guys are migrating you go wobbling between voting and polling and you don't you're not realizing that that you're walking that fine line this is only informational 52:47a poll is great and i agree let's do a poll to see how many people support child three it's only more information and that's it it's not consequential in terms of making a decision like his torah said if 90 of the people are in favor of something that is wrong it doesn't have to pass anyway has to be to 53:07be kicked out like the treasury okay guys i have unfortunately have a meeting again so thank you very much estora and brothel for organizing this call thanks donald always appreciate your input it 53:26could be argued that even having a poll is a bad idea purely because it influences people through like a non-rational or like non-evidential basis as in if someone sees that 90 of the community support this thing then it's likely 53:45they're just going to follow the crowd because they want to you know it's human instinct to follow the crowd so it's it's biasing people in a way that is making them not make a decision on their own potentially [Music] yes there is a problem there but 54:04you also have to admit that proposals need to gather community consensus so how do you how do you do that i 54:21mean as you mentioned one about node operators and essentially just the consequential people it doesn't really matter what everyone thinks it matters what the people who actually run the code think and that includes miners and node operators and exchanges and people 54:39that ride the clients like in in that balance of power who's actually having consequential decisions it's their choices that really matter here and of course you know if community members have a strong opinion they can influence the thoughts of those players and that's uh that's the more important thing 54:59as opposed to just like seeing what everyone would prefer to have well the problem is with uh with succeeding succeeding in measuring this 55:18is this is the this is my idea about the poll is to to make uh just to inform people and get an opinion and from there if we get the results we can we get some sort of results we can more than 55:37advance in uh in a way that we can make node operators miners or i don't know we can make make them more engaged i'm trying to figure out where how do you bridge the creation of this simple document right that 55:56outlines the debate how do you bridge that into a poll well i'm not sure yet but uh this is why we are having discussions just just to find a suitable way to to measure and inform 56:15people about this debate so that we eliminate the noise around it and have something that we know i think in in a few months we should know that uh these 56:35proposals will be pushed forward updated continued if work will continue to be done is something to to keep this to keep this going and see where it later 56:53leads us i guess you could do a sort of informal call among among client operators i mean they probably have some idea of what's whatever the user base is what they would prefer and they could provide feedback and then then he could see where things are leaning 57:12i mean if if everybody tells you oh no if if you go shout and then we just drop edc then they need that and then you know what it's probably not another good idea if everybody tells you oh yes i've been waiting for this all my life then you know it's it's definitely going the other way and maybe they have to have some 57:29more mixed response and maybe they they will also talk to people who haven't been aware yet maybe for example try to to reach their miners and then get a get a more substantial information on that base i mean a poor operator off measure 57:46has an idea of of what is behind a certain account and so so that they can also also provides uh some quantitative quantitative measures um for for the weight of of of an opinion not not just how many machines 58:04are there or how many times people click on the button and that might help to to shape an idea of where where the community is leaning um it's very hard to get to get any anything precise because then you then you move to 58:23things like hash rate or what was your account balance at this at this state and so on and then you move very far away from this democratic ideal of one person one boat and you will get lots of flack for trying this 58:41so basically yes that's done the voting mechanism that that we used to doesn't apply there you can what you can do is is make opinion polls and try to make them as accurate as possible and possibly also evolve them over time start with something simple that that 59:00we can get some data then then you might find out where you need to dig a little deeper or where this is already sufficient feedback and then after a few iterations you might have something that's actually quite good for telling you what the community thinks could you elaborate on what you mean by client 59:19operators and the different kinds of operators that might be involved just uh just everybody who runs uh an etc client core gear for a baser that's not a very large number of of entities and i mean every pool should have one so you get all the pools uh exchanges 59:37will have will almost certainly have one or several and um so you get a get input from exchange exchanges and exchanges also a certain extent to represent um investors who just invest in the in the coin 59:55itself and don't do it much else with it um what you don't what you don't catch with by talking with um current operators is the people who just have to have some epc sitting on on their private wallet and and the whole other and planning to hold them for for the next few decades and 1:00:16who might not even be paying attention to daily usually dtc it's just something that they have and but they'll worry about it when they retire and um so that there's that there's always always some blind spots um what we uh what is definitely important is um i mean 1:00:35if we just if we ignore that the whole um opinion forming in the uh but just just the the the outcome at the end i mean let's let's assume the the two positions cannot be reconciled and it comes to to go to conflicting uh change uh so the conflicting 1:00:55split of the chain so you get one chain with shafui and one with with edc hash and then you could see that you could see how much hash rate you would actually get on each side and this is something you could possibly and try to find out by such a research pulse when you mainly 1:01:15ask them the miners where they would go so you ask the poor operators to ask their miners um what they would do or if they pulled the operator decides oh well we just just support one and not the other then you would also have an indication but of course it could also mean that the minus then we just switched to other poles and also this 1:01:35one like with shard three it's completely different algorithm so that it's a very difficult thing to measure in terms of hash rate yes yes i i mean you can you can predict it to some extent for this for the initial phase i mean the assumption is that um if 1:01:53uh if if a shaft free chain is created then it would initially be supported mainly by gpus and a little bit by fpgas and a6 will only come later now fpgas would be mostly new players in in this in this area and though and sha 1:02:113a6 would be completely new players on edc so because we can't really predict what they will do but we can't we can see what uh gpu miners who are already mining edc will do and that's of course the the the small issue that um the minor population will change dramatically um after the merge 1:02:31so whatever whatever we these the sample at the moment will not be very representative um but it could give us always an indication of where things would go and stand out then once the merges happened and the the major movements um will have stopped it will have settled down a little 1:02:50bit then we could maybe get some more accurate data or if the if an early attempt at obtaining such data shows that we can't get anything useful then we may have to think about about a different different approach but yes it's basic space is basically like like any opinion porter you ask a few people 1:03:10and focus you you try to construct the the opinion of the general public and it's pretty much it's very much the same again you you have some date some data but it's it'll be it will be distorted because you can't you can't ask everyone and well 1:03:27you have to work with this yeah and the question is what is the opinion poll actually useful for what does it actually achieve in terms of reaching a decision if any um essentially the well the the the conflict can be admitted 1:03:45that the conflict between those those two those two competing sides can be resolved if one side withdraws so if you can convince one side that they don't have a chance um if they execute the conflict as planned then you have a sort of the issue if you both 1:04:03insist on on doing their thing then you have a conflict that you can't that you can't resolve and then you will just have to have basically after the market fight it out one one very important question i think is uh are you willing to run a version of the chain even 1:04:22if someone is going to do a fork of it like are you willing to either stick on uh eth sorry etc hash or on the flip side are you willing to cause uh to mine a shah 3 chain even if eth hash is still running like because 1:04:40if there's a significant number if this is that's one thing and if you if you're a pool then um you should also add how much hash rate you expect but first of all how about charger you already have this and this limits the the number of pools that you want to look at so not too many and then 1:05:00also how much hash rate you would expect to go to each side and then you well maybe the pool that would operate have already talked with miners about this and definitely a rough idea of what the outcome outcome will be or maybe they can ask for that occasion they might their miners and or either by contacting 1:05:19them individually if they have established a contact or just by posting something on the on their website and get our opinions this way i mean most pools will expect to have some have a group of large miners that they know fairly well and they probably also know what their preferences 1:05:37are so you might get an overview of a significant number of the hash of the current edc hash power by going this path [Music] i just want to add um 1:05:56about the community pool i think the the main question is is the community want a chain split because this solves a lot of other questions if the community doesn't want a hard fork or doesn't 1:06:14want a chain splint i think this is the main the main starting point yeah and that also well there's multiple ways to do a chain split there's a messy way and a non-messy way and the non-messy way is unfortunately probably not one 1:06:35way that the shah three side would like as like what i'm referring to here is changing the chain id such that yes there's a chain split but replay attacks don't happen but i don't think either side wants to bump the id because that means losing the entire ecosystem so it 1:06:54has to be made clear what the implication of a chain split is and i don't really think many people understand how that's going to play out right that's the comment i was going to inject because you know there's the emotional argument and then there's the practical side of walking down what the implications of chain 1:07:12split are and what happens after a split who's going to maintain it what happens the ecosystem so on and so forth and you know even the dreaded question of funding yes and and on that note that's also why it's important to talk to client operators that that 1:07:31are exchanges because exchanges may decide to delist the edc if it gets gets too chaotic or they might decide to support only one side and ignore the other and this might in turn also shift the uh the 1:07:49opinion of miners um if if one but if one branch just becomes too too difficult to use and possibly also if if one branch gets boycotted by the by exchanges then we could also see a rapid 1:08:08negative value development which again would then cause minus to shift because that if that side is not profitable um and uh in this in terms of having a nice a nice split i mean there's several scenarios one one could be just changed uh um change 1:08:28the chain id and forked fork etc at at a given point with the if the ledger is still intact and the history before that before the split but you could also um essentially that's what that's what i keep on proposing um start 1:08:46the new chain under the edc umbrella with shafuy and ramp it up from zero so you so you avoid all those issues where you have a a huge amount of value in the in your ecosystem but you don't have the hash rate yet to protect it but you could grow those things with things together and 1:09:07you could maintain the same technological basis because much work has already been done sponsored by etc on the on the client side to support uh shafori so that could uh easily be developed 1:09:26into a stage where well not quiverly but um it should be reason we will do this to a state where you would have there would be clients that are capable of doing of working on both chains so the the three side would not have to start from zero they would have this 1:09:44very important element the protect the client already available to them and i suppose there could also be an agreement could be which to that this would continue to be supported so that they wouldn't have to worry about taking over this key role um at 1:10:04the beginning plus if this comes with the official blessing of of the edc community basically it would be sort of a let's say it will be a new coin is that is being developed inside the under well under the edc umbrella so if this comes with the with 1:10:21the blessing of of edc this could also give it some credibility and ease and open some doors for example to get listed on on exchanges and such so it could it could be a much easier process than than having to start a completely new new 1:10:38coin somewhere but it it would also provide an opportunity to to decouple things from the existing edc chain and you could still switch between chains just by by exchanging coins and so so if if at some point in the future 1:10:58uh it becomes clear that uh that etc is no longer viable for some reason and uh people really want to switch to shuffle but this chain has then evolved to a point where it's where it's mature and then asset 1:11:17assets could be transferred by the usual mechanisms to this so you would at least not have a lot of functionality if you do this and so this is a thing you think all something worth considering because this this would this would uh avoid that kind of messy split plus they 1:11:36could how how it wants to start start whether it wants to uh copy the lecture or part of the lecture or if it wants to implement some air drops or so to to to bring people from 1:11:54from edc onboard the the adc shafri chain and so on but these are all these are decisions that uh that can be taken by the better people promoting this so they don't need to coordinate with anyone else they can get feedback obviously uh of what people what the rest 1:12:13of the community thinks makes sense or not but they would not they in the end the the choice would be theirs so this would avoid a lot of conflict again decentralization by one chain if you can have two so you're proposing a hard spoon basically potentially a 1:12:32hard spoon being a new chain that copies the state at a given block uh i would leave that open um i would say a new chain but how they initially initialize it that would be their decision i'm not sure if it would be a good idea to to copy the whole lecture over 1:12:51for example right right right you might just want to do the non-contract accounts or the opposite well ignore the contracts and duplicate the money um because then you get a clean slate and there's no bloat it's just like a genesis block right 1:13:10so otherwise you have to keep all the all the gas tokens okay but whatever that's again that's that's they 1:13:32don't need anyone's permission for this they're free to choose whatever makes sense for them i i do also wonder if there is a middle way here um and this seems like the closest thing to it but there's a lot of details to iron out and finding a solution that is uh agreeable 1:13:50to everyone i mean if for the shah 3 side it's either do this or there's no shar 3 whatsoever then i mean it seems like the better option but that kind of depends on whether or not so so if the choice is do shar 3 and therefore cause a chain split 1:14:07is that preferable to trying to find this alternative approach that is officially supported and has the same philosophy as etc but instead is done in a way that guarantees that no change play occurs so open question there i'm not i guess i guess we'll see in the in the coming days 1:14:27whether this question is answered purely by you know whatever happens after the merge or there's some other proposal but yeah these ideas need to be summarized and uh brothers um initiative i think is a a good action point for us to try and solve this week so that next week we can actually 1:14:47you know start working on this much covered this uh this point which has spawned a conversation that's been way longer and way more interesting than i anticipated so uh i i thoroughly enjoyed it and thanks 1:15:06for uh contributions um we are now an hour and a half in as always we're going to open up the floor if anyone wants to jump in and say hello or show and tell or just bring up any topic they're interested in feel free i have a question regarding the poll um 1:15:22i was thinking about using it for the to you know just to find out where community members were we had a conversation last week about you know where to hold the where to hold a potential summit or conference i just kind of wanted to get an idea of where everyone was and what 1:15:40was going to be convenient definitely do that i'm not sure bro what your uh what stage you're at with this bot but if it has the ability to do simple polls where you can not just like vote on stuff but like provide responses 1:16:01uh i mean we can just put a sub thread can't we and say where do you live or where where which continent are you on for example and then just collect information about that [Music] i think i think there are bots like that simple 1:16:22pull bots and more complex ones now depends what we want to do basically the opportunities can be can be adjusted and brought to this card cool i'm 1:16:42sure we can um we'll make an action point out of that and add it to the uh the show the uh meeting minutes and then i'll try and put something together there before next week great thanks another thing i'll try by the next call to to have a structure 1:17:01for for the sha-3 debate and talk it with you guys and and see if we move it forward or we just let it let it die if if there 1:17:20isn't consideration for it if we don't need it we might as well not do it sounds good and i uh let's link up after this call i have some ideas about how we can 1:17:37organize that an idea this week about trying to defog the ethereum classic community in that it's it's kind of difficult to know exactly who's actually doing stuff and which teams are active and who's active in those 1:17:57teams and all the different nooks and crannies of the community including like this discord and maybe there's some other discord channel that we don't know of that i mean i know there's a telegram that i don't use but is out there and there's a whole community on twitter and there's exchanges there's miners there's 1:18:17all kinds of different players out there but there's no central sort of directory of where these different groups are i mean there is the there's the channels thing on the website but it's really just a list of links to different um communities 1:18:35and it'd be better i think to have almost like a social graph of all the different participants in the ethereum classic community and if there's ever a need to sort of blast out and communicate with the whole community at some point it'd be good to have lines of communication into all of the 1:18:54major sort of players in that in that graph so i thought at some point it'd be good to try and get a list of those people but i don't know where to start really with that as you mentioned one i think there's there's like different pool operators and miners and stuff so apart from reaching out and doing 1:19:13it manually uh yeah i'm not sure where to start if there's any last comments or um anyone want to say hello please do so now or we'll wrap it up week 1:19:33and we will see you next week for a etc cc number 16. 1:19:37next tuesday same time same place we might have a guest it might be slightly different time but uh we'll be sure to announce it so uh checking the discord and for the announcement there so take care and see you next week bye

SHA3 Poll, Front-Running Solutions

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